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biblical inconsistancies...
iggy Posted: Tue Dec 9 00:54:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalist interpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions. It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired.

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, IS 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.

GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7, 38, NU 28:1-29, 40 God details sacrificial offerings.
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.
JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots.

GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.
GA 6:15 It is of no consequence.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession." GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

GE 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.
2PE 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

GE 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine."
DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.
PS 104:5 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.
JE 13:12 "... every bottle shall be filled with wine."
JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine.
RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.

GE 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel.
GE 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob.

GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.
GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.
1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.

GE 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.
RE 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.)

GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.
AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor.

EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses.
NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses.

EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies.
EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor.

EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc.
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.

EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians.
EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils.
EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed.
EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback.

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.

EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as more than 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of about 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt.
1KI 20:15 All the Israelites, including children, number only 7000 at a later time.

EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war--he is fierce and angry.
RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace.

EX 20:1-17 God gave the law directly to Moses (without using an intermediary).
GA 3:19 The law was ordained through angels by a mediator (an intermediary).

EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever.
EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images.

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions.
MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath).
RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance.

EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus.
MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple.
MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK 18:20, RO 13:9, JA 2:11 God prohibits killing.
GE 34:1-35:5 God condones trickery and killing.
EX 32:27, DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18 God orders killing.
2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord slaughters 185,000 men.
(Note: See Atrocities section for many more examples.)

EX 20:14 God prohibits adultery.
HO 1:2 God instructs Hosea to "take a wife of harlotry."

EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc.
MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies.

EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent.
NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, 30-39, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or children.
(Note: See Atrocities section for many other examples of the killing of innocents.)

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
NU 14:30 God breaks his promise.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

EX 34:6-7, JS 24:19, 1CH 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good.
IS 45:6-7, LA 3:8, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil.

EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven.
JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven.

LE 3:17 God himself prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat.
MT 15:11, CN 2:20-22 Jesus and Paul say that such rules don't matter--they are only human injunctions.

LE 19:18, MT 22:39 Love your neighbor [as much as] yourself.
1CO 10:24 Put your neighbor ahead of yourself.

LE 21:10 The chief priest is not to rend his clothes.
MT 26:65, MK 14:63 He does so during the trial of Jesus.

LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest.
MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest.

NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.
JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.

NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.
HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

NU 25:9 24,000 died in the plague.
1CO 10:8 23,000 died in the plague.

NU 30:2 God enjoins the making of vows (oaths).
MT 5:33-37 Jesus forbids doing so, saying that they arise from evil (or the Devil).

NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

NU 33:41-42 After Aaron's death, the Israelites journeyed from Mt. Hor, to Zalmonah, to Punon, etc.
DT 10:6-7 It was from Mosera, to Gudgodah, to Jotbath.

DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

DT 7:9-10 God destroys his enemies.
MT 5:39-44 Do not resist your enemies. Love them.

DT 18:20-22 A false prophet is one whose words do not come true. Death is required.
EZ 14:9 A prophet who is deceived, is deceived by God himself. Death is still required.

DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord.
IS 56:4-5 Some castrates will receive special rewards.

DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord.
MT 19:12 Men are encouraged to consider making themselves castrates for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

DT 24:1-5 A man can divorce his wife simply because she displeases him and both he and his wife can remarry.
MK 10:2-12 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery.

DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.
RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.




 
iggy Posted: Tue Dec 9 00:55:56 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law.
RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law.

JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.
LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful.

JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him.
JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing.

JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir.
JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who thereby obtained the hand of Caleb's daughter, Achsah.

1SA 8:2-22 Samuel informs God as to what he has heard from others.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees and hears everything.

1SA 9:15-17 The Lord tells Samuel that Saul has been chosen to lead the Israelites and will save them from the Philistines.
1SA 15:35 The Lord is sorry that he has chosen Saul.
1SA 31:4-7 Saul commits suicide and the Israelites are overrun by the Philistines.

1SA 15:7-8, 20 The Amalekites are utterly destroyed.
1SA 27:8-9 They are utterly destroyed (again?).
1SA 30:1, 17-18 They raid Ziklag and David smites them (again?).

1SA 16:10-11, 17:12 Jesse had seven sons plus David, or eight total.
1CH 2:13-15 He had seven total.

1SA 16:19-23 Saul knew David well before the latter's encounter with Goliath.
1SA 17:55-58 Saul did not know David at the time of his encounter with Goliath and had to ask about David's identity.

1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot.
1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath (again?) with a sword.

1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath.
2SA 21:19 Elhanan killed Goliath. (Note: Some translations insert the words "the brother of" before Elhanan. These are an addition to the earliest manuscripts in an apparent attempt to rectify this inconsistency.)

1SA 21:1-6 Ahimalech was high priest when David ate the bread.
MK 2:26 Abiathar was high priest at the time.

1SA 28:6 Saul inquired of the Lord, but received no answer.
1CH 10:13-14 Saul died for not inquiring of the Lord.

1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword.
2SA 2:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite.
2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa.
1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God.

2SA 6:23 Michal was childless.
2SA 21:8 (KJV) She had five sons.

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

2SA 24:9 The census count was: Israel 800,000 and Judah 500,000.
1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel 1,100,000 and Judah 470,000.

2SA 24:10-17 David sinned in taking the census.
1KI 15:5 David's only sin (ever) was in regard to another matter.

2SA 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of silver for the purchase of a property.
1CH 21:22-25 He paid 600 shekels of gold.

1KI 3:12 God made Solomon the wisest man that ever lived, yet ....
1KI 11:1-13 Solomon loved many foreign women (against God's explicit prohibition) who turned him to other gods (for which he deserved death).

1KI 3:12, 4:29, 10:23-24, 2CH 9:22-23 God made Solomon the wisest king and the wisest man that ever lived. There never has been nor will be another like him.
MT 12:42, LK 11:31 Jesus says: "... now one greater than Solomon is here."

1KI 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 horses (or stalls for horses).
2CH 9:25 He had 4,000 horses (or stalls for horses).

1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors.
2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors.

1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.
2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.

1KI 7:26 Solomon's "molten sea" held 2000 "baths" (1 bath = about 8 gallons).
2CH 4:5 It held 3000 "baths."

1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness.
1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light.

1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God.
AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men.

1KI 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.
2CH 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.

1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places.
2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them.

1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.

1KI 16:23 Omri became king in the thirty-first year of Asa's reign and he reigned for a total of twelve years.
1KI 16:28-29 Omri died, and his son Ahab became king in the thirty- eighth year of Asa's reign. (Note: Thirty-one through thirty-eight equals a reign of seven or eight years.)

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit.
PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty.

1KI 22:42-43 Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places.
2CH 17:5-6 He did remove them.

2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.
JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.
2CO 12:2-4 An unnamed man, known to Paul, went up to heaven and came back.
HE 11:5 Enoch was translated to heaven.

2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus).
MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself).
AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead.

2KI 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign.
2CH 22:1 He was 42 when he began his reign.
[Note: Some translations use "twenty-two" here in an attempt to rectify this discrepancy. The Hebrew is clear, however, that 2CH 22:2 is 42. The Hebrew words involved are Strong's H705 and H8147, "forty" and "two," respectively.]

2KI 9:27 Jehu shot Ahaziah near Ibleam. Ahaziah fled to Meggido and died there.
2CH 22:9 Ahaziah was found hiding in Samaria, brought to Jehu, and put to death.

2KI 16:5 The King of Syria and the son of the King of Israel did not conquer Ahaz.
2CH 28:5-6 They did conquer Ahaz.

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) was eighteen years old when he began to reign.
2CH 36:9 He was eight.
(Note: This discrepancy has been "corrected" in some versions.)

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) reigned three months.
2CH 36:9 He reigned three months and ten days.

2KI 24:17 Jehoiachin (Jehoaikim) was succeeded by his uncle.
2CH 36:10 He was succeeded by his brother.

2CH 3:11-13 The lineage is: Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham.
MT 1:8-9 It is: Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, etc.

2CH 3:19 Pedaiah was the father of Zerubbabel.
ER 3:2 Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.

2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord.
RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases.

ER 2:3-64 (Gives the whole congregation as 42,360 while the actual sum of the numbers is about 30,000.)

JB 2:3-6, 21:7-13, 2TI 3:12 The godly are persecuted and chastised but the wicked grow old, wealthy, and powerful, unchastised by God.
PS 55:23, 92:12-14, PR 10:2-3, 27-31, 12:2, 21 The lives of the wicked are cut short. The righteous flourish and obtain favor from the Lord.

PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is "far off."
PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth.

PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer.
PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help.

PS 30:5, JE 3:12, MI 7:18 God's anger does not last forever.
JE 17:4, MT 25:46 It does last forever. (He has provided for eternal punishment.)

PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance.
PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles.

PS 78:69, EC 1:4, 3:14 The earth was established forever.
PS 102:25-26, MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33, HE 1:10-11, 2PE 3:10 The earth will someday perish.

PR 3:13, 4:7, 19:8, JA 1:5 Happy is the man who finds wisdom. Get wisdom.
LK 2:40, 52 Jesus was filled with wisdom and found favor with God.
1CO 1:19-25, 3:18-20 Wisdom is foolishness.

PR 12:2, RO 8:28 A good man obtains favor from the Lord.
TI 3:12, HE 12:6 The godly will be persecuted.

PR 14:8 The wisdom of a prudent man is to discern his way.
MT 6:25-34 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you.

PR 14:15-18 The simple believe everything and acquire folly; the prudent look where they are going and are crowned with knowledge.
MT 18:3, LK 18:17 You must believe as little children do.
1CO 1:20, 27 God has made the wisdom of the world foolish so as to shame the wise.
PR 16:4 God made the wicked for the "day of evil."
MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 God and Jesus hide some things from some people.
JN 6:65 No one can come to Jesus unless it is granted by God.
RO 8:28-30 Some are predestined to be called to God, believe in Jesus, and be justified.
RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on, and hardens the hearts of, whom he pleases.
2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked so as to be able to condemn them.
1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 [Yet] God wants all to be saved.

PR 8:13, 16:6 It is the fear of God that keeps men from evil.
1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear.
1JN 5:2, 2JN 1:6 Those who love God keep his commandments.

PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true.
JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God.
JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people.
(Note: Some versions translate deceive as "persuade." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

IS 3:13 God stands to judge.
JL 3:12 He sits to judge.

IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation.




 
iggy Posted: Tue Dec 9 00:56:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others.
MT 27:58-60, MK 15:45-46, LK 23:52-53, JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself.

JE 12:13 Some sow wheat but reap thorns.
MI 6:15 Some sow but won't reap anything.
MT 25:26, LK 19:22 Some reap without sowing.
2CO 9:6, GA 6:7 A man reaps what he sows.

JE 32:18 God shows love to thousands, but brings punishment for the sins of their fathers to many children.
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.

JE 34:4-5 Zedekiah was to die in peace.
JE 52:10-11 Instead, Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die.

EZ 20:25-26 The law was not good. The sacrifice of children was for the purpose of horrifying the people so that they would know that God is Lord.
RO 7:12, 1TI 1:8 The law is good.

EZ 26:15-21 God says that Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again.
(Nebudchanezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.)

DN 5:1 (Gives the title of "king" to Belshazzar although Belshazzar was actually the "viceroy.")

DN 5:2 (Says that Nebuchadnezzar was the father of Belshazzar, but actually, Nebonidus was the father of Belshazzar.) (Note: Some versions attempt to correct this error by making the verse say that Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar.)

ZE 11:12-13 Mentions "thirty pieces" and could possibly be thought to be connected with the Potter's Field prophesy referred to in Matthew.
MT 27:9 Jeremiah is given as the source of the prophesy regarding the purchase of the Potter's Field. (Note: There is no such prophesy in Jeremiah.)

MT 1:6-7 The lineage of Jesus is traced through David's son, Solomon.
LK 3:23-31 It is traced through David's son, Nathan.
(Note: Some apologists assert that Luke traces the lineage through Mary. That this is untrue is obvious from the context since Luke and Matthew both clearly state that Joseph was Jesus' father.)

MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.
LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.
LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.

MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus.
LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception.

MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.
LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.

MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be "great," the "son of the Most High," etc., and ....
MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet ....
MK 3:21 Jesus' own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and ....
MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism).

MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel).
MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus.

MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod's death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.)
LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants.

MT 2:23 "And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He will be called a Nazarene.'" (This prophecy is not found in the OT and while Jesus is often referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth", he is seldom referred to as "Jesus the Nazarene.")

MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel.
MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah.

MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light).
MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an "outer darkness" (and therefore dark).

MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.
JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.

MT 3:17 The heavenly voice addressed the crowd: "This is my beloved Son."
MK 1:11, LK 3:22 The voice addressed Jesus: "You are my beloved Son...."

MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.
JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.

MT 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to the mountain top.
LK 4:5-9 First to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle of the temple.

MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.)
LK 5:2-11 (A different story.)
JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.)

MT 5:1 - 7:29 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the mount.
LK 6:17-49 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the plain. (Note: No such sermons are mentioned in either MK or JN and Paul seems totally unfamiliar with either the sermon on the mount or the sermon on the plain.)

MT 5:16 Good works should be seen.
MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret.

MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus underscores the permanence of the law.
LE 10:8 - 11:47, DT 14:3-21 The law distinguishes between clean and unclean foods.
MK 7:14-15, MK 7:18-19 Jesus says that there is no such distinction.
TI 4:1-4 All foods are clean according to Paul.

MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law.

MT 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell.
MT 7:26 Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool. (Note: The translation now prevalent, "like a foolish man," in MT 7:26 is a dishonest attempt to alleviate the obvious inconsistency here in that the oldest Greek manuscripts use the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and "like a foolish man" in MT 7:26.)
MT 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools.
MT 25:2, 3, 8 Jesus likens the maidens who took no oil to fools. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)
1CO 1:23, 3:18, 4:10 Paul uses fool with regard to Christians becoming fools for Christ. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)

MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
EP 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin.

MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works.
MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season.
MK 3:5 Jesus looks around "angrily."

MT 5:32 Divorce, except on the grounds of unchastity, is wrong.
MK 10:11-12 Divorce on any grounds is wrong.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Jesus says: "Do not resist evil. Love your enemies."
MT 6:15, 12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, MK 7:6, LK 11:40, 44, 12:56 Jesus repeatedly hurls epithets at his opponents.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.
LK 19:27 God is likened to one who destroys his enemies.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.
JN 1:9-11 Shun anyone who does not hold the proper doctrine.
MT 5:43-44, MT 22:39 Love your enemies. Love your neighbor as yourself.
MT 10:5 Go nowhere among the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan town.

MT 5:45, 7:21 God resides in heaven.
MK 13:32 The angels reside in heaven
AC 7:55, HE 12:2 Jesus is at the right hand of God, in heaven.
1PE 1:3-4 Believers will inherit eternal life in heaven.
MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33 Heaven will pass away.

MT 6:13 God might lead us into temptation and it is better avoided.
JA 1:2-3 Temptation is joy.

MT 6:13 Jesus' prayer implies that God might lead us into temptation.
JA 1:13 God tempts no one.

MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you.
TI 5:8 A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. (Note: Providing for a family certainly involves taking "thought for tomorrow.")

MT 7:1-2 Do not judge.
MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet.

MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find.
LK 13:24 Many will try to enter the Kingdom but will be unable.

MT 7:21 Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
AC 2:21, RO 10:13 Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
AC 2:39 Those God calls to himself will be saved.

MT 7:21, LK 10:36-37, RO 2:6, 13, JA 2:24 We are justified by works, not by faith.
JN 3:16, RO 3:20-26, EP 2:8-9, GA 2:16 We are justified by faith, not by works.

MT 8:5-12 The centurion himself approaches Jesus to ask to heal his servant.
LK 7:2-10 The centurion sends elders to do the asking.

MT 8:16, LK 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick.
MK 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all).

MT 8:28-33 Two demoniacs are healed in the Gadarene swine incident.
MK 5:2-16, LK 8:26-36 One demoniac is healed in this incident.

MT 9:18 The ruler's daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her.
LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead.

MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal...
MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so.

MT 10:2, MK 3:16-19 The twelve apostles (disciples) were: Simon (Peter), Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, John his brother, Philip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus (Labbaeus), Simon, and Judas Iscariot.
LK 6:13-16 The above except that Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, and Judas the son of James is added (and Judas Iscariot remains).
AC 1:13, 26 Same as MT and MK except that, like LK Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, Judas the son of James is included, and Mathias is chosen by the others to replace Judas Iscariot.

MT 10:2, 5-6 Peter was to be an apostle to the Jews and not go near the Gentiles.
AC 15:7 He was an apostle to the Gentiles.

MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves.
MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves.

MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division--not peace.
JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace."

MT 10:22, 24:13, MK 13:13 He that endures to the end will be saved.
MK 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved.
JN 3:5 Only he that is born of water and Spirit will be saved.
AC 16:31 He that believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved.
AC 2:21 He that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
RO 10:9 He who confesses with his mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved.
1JN 4:7 He who loves is born of God (and presumably will be saved.)

MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.)
MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc.

MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more.
JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah.

MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 Jesus thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes." He says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain hidden to at least some persons, and specifically so that they will not turn and be forgiven.
MK 4:22 Jesus says that all things should be made known.

MT 11:29 Jesus says that he is gentle (meek) and humble (lowly).
JN 2:15 Jesus makes a whip of cords, drives the money changers from the Temple, overturns their tables, and pours out their coins. (Note: The presence of the money changers in the outer court of the Temple had been authorized by the Temple authorities and was, in fact, a necessity since the Jews would not accept Roman coin for the purchase of sacrifices.)

MT 12:5 Jesus says that the law (OT) states that the priests profane the Sabbath but are blameless. (No such statement is found in the OT.

MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.
MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.
(Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign."
JN 3:2, 20:30, AC 2:22 Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs."

MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples.
JN 1:1 - 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.)

MT 13:58, MK 6:5 In spite of his faith, Jesus is not able to perform mighty miracles.
MT 17:20, 19:26, MK 9:23, 10:27, LK 17:6, 18:27 Jesus says that anything is possible to him who believes if he has the faith of a grain of mustard seed. All things are possible with God. A mountain can be commanded to move and it will move.

MT 5:37, 15:19, MK 7:22, JN 8:14, 44, 14:6, 18:37 Jesus says that you should answer a plain "yes" or "no," that his purpose is to bear witness to the truth, and that his testimony is true. He equates lying with evil.
JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.)

MT 16:6, 11 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
MK 8:15 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod.

MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.
MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] "Satan" and "a hindrance," and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God.

MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.
AC 15:1-21 James presides over the first Council of Jerusalem and formulates the decree regarding the accepting of Gentiles which is sent to the other churches. (Note: Tradition has it that James was appointed as the first Bishop or Pope, not Peter.)

MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.
LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.

MT 20:20-21 The mother of James and John asks Jesus a favor for her sons.
MK 10:35-37 They ask for themselves.

MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give.
MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus.

MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.
MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.

MT 21:1-17 The sequence was: triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, Bethany.
MK 11:1-19 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple.
LK 19:28-48 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, daily teaching in the temple.
JN 12:1-18 Cleansing of the temple (early in his career), Supper with Lazarus, triumphal entry, no cleansing of the temple following the triumphal entry.

MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.

MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry.
MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved.




 
addi Posted: Tue Dec 9 07:36:34 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Interesting stuff, chanz. I grew up in a very religious environment. My church held to a strick literal interpretation of the scriptures. They had no problems with any of the inconsistancies in the Bible. There was always an interpretation that would make things seem logical. I had it pounded into my head that the Bible was "infallable". That god used the men writing the scriptures sort of like how a boss would use a secretary, dictating a letter and the secretary would be the instrument to put those words on paper. The scriptures were not Lukes, or David's, or Paul's words. They were literally God's words.
That's one reason that things like evolution threaten them so much. It is viewed as a direct assault on the literal 7 day creation. If they allow for that part of Genesis as just being an allegory then it creates a huge crack in the cornerstone of their faith, and the whole foundation of their faith could come tumbling down. It's the same reason fundamentalists are so opposed to Gays, and so much in support of Israel (fulfillment of the prophesy, and God's chosen ones). If you do any research on the early church leaders and the decisions involved in choosing what writings became the Bible as we know it today it's a real eye opener. Politics, corruption, and power was alive and well in the early AD centuries.

Thus endeth today's lesson.
Thanks be to god.


 
mat_j Posted: Tue Dec 9 08:57:37 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is one reason why christian fundamentalism is crap, if they ever built a robot (which is probabaly sinful) and programmed it with the bible it would definatly go mad and start killing people with it's poorly thought out hidden machine gun feature


 
12q Posted: Tue Dec 9 16:11:11 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i would like to say this from a scientific veiw if i can. first all of the genises stuff is interpolated. i disregard that section almost without thought. next i would like to ask if this man compiled the list himself or if he took the liberty to copy and paste or the like. On to the translation part. you can not say that there are inconsistancies in individual until you have had a greek course, wich i have had bits and pieces of and it has been very helpfull in inturpreting the bible. for exampl: the greeks had 3 different words for three different types uf love but when you read the bible you just get the word "love". Also he is taking a lot of liberaties i theology. he is inturpretting the meaning of vereses rather then looking at what they mean contextualy. you can argue what a verse means to you but its much harder to argue what it ment historicly or to the author and i can't go ino detail unlass some one brings up a specific example. next i will discuss some theology if i may and if not well i guess no one can tell me no. lol. He talks about a vengful god in the past and a forgiving god now or since christ. that is pretty much true. God has put mankind through a preocess for salvation. This process looks so flawed until you read the bible for youself. i don't mean going to church and being taught but actuly looking for it yourself. There are so many things he posts that i don't think i will go point for point with it but rather i would like to encourage any questions and i will pray and study and maybe have an answer. i guess i would even like random yelling or eve direct critisizm but i would perfer and type of "challange" if it is really a doubt or a stumbiling block for you. oh i just remembered one of the points he said that i had just learned about so ill share. He talks about the differences in jesus's geneolgy in MATT and in LUKE. one was written for jews and one was written for greeks. one of the accounts used him mothers side as well and one of them didn't. They were written by different people for a different audiance but the facts were correct.

well i wonder if i sound ignorant or closed minded but i saw an open forum and thought maybe this was a place to let out some ideas that the immediate around me hardly ever comment on. ahve fun with this thread and try not to "flame" me too bad


 
addi Posted: Tue Dec 9 17:27:28 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  12q said:

>
>well i wonder if i sound ignorant or closed minded but i saw an open forum and thought maybe this was a place to let out some ideas that the immediate around me hardly ever comment on. ahve fun with this thread and try not to "flame" me too bad

Welcome 12q. And let me be the first to say it takes balls to expose yourself like that when you're a newbie. I disagree with you, but if anyone here starts busting your balls it shows nothing but their ignorance, not yours.
You make some valid points regarding translations. However if I could read all of the passages in question in their origonal Greek texts there would still be inconsistancies. Poor translatons add to the problems, but they exist in the greek versions as well.
The point in my humble opinion is that these texts were written by men (and perhaps a woman or two). They will therefore have inconsistances in them because we are not perfect. If you are a believer you need to dwell on the message beneath the text, and not strive to "prove" that there are no problems and everything has to have a literal translation or else it renders the bible useless. That's a losing battle. Trying to decifer meaning from a literal view of these words was, in my view, never intended in the first place. That bit of garbage was dumped upon christians when the church hierarchy stuck their two cents in and really fouled things up. As others here know about me I have my doubts about God. But if I was a "true" believer my god would be bigger than the tiny confined box so many christians have put him in today. A box big enough that I could know that evolution is a scientific fact, and still see god behind creation. A box so big that it holds everyone in it, even those men and women who were biologically born(not chose) to love their same sex and believe that god loves and accepts them the same as us horny heteros. A box so big that when someone posted all the inconsistancies in the bible I wouldn't be threatened because my god is bigger than that. The message behind the bible to me is love. Everything else is window dressing that I will gladly leave to those moronic systematic theologians to argue over whilst god looks down on them and shakes his head.


 
libra Posted: Tue Dec 9 17:41:41 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I really liked that addison. I'm an athiest to the bone, but I do appreciate and can understand it when people have the ideas you have. I wish some of the religious people i know had the same outlook as you do instead of making the lives of others more difficult.


 
addi Posted: Tue Dec 9 18:55:50 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>I really liked that addison. I'm an athiest to the bone, but I do appreciate and can understand it when people have the ideas you have. I wish some of the religious people i know had the same outlook as you do instead of making the lives of others more difficult.

Thanks, Libra. Some time, not now, you and I need to have a friendly talk on your religious stance though. I find an athiest's position just as untenable as a fundamentalists, who is certain of God's existence. It's the "there is certainly a God", and the "there certainly isn't a God" views that make me cringe.

BTW I was looking through the lastest copy of "Atheisists Today" waiting at the grocery store checkout line and there was a poll taken amongst young female atheisists on love. Turns out 99% of them find older agnostic men to be a turn on and very sexy! I know, I know, you'll say you fall in the 1% category. :)


 
libra Posted: Tue Dec 9 22:19:24 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>
>Thanks, Libra. Some time, not now, you and I need to have a friendly talk on your religious stance though. I find an athiest's position just as untenable as a fundamentalists, who is certain of God's existence. It's the "there is certainly a God", and the "there certainly isn't a God" views that make me cringe.
>
>BTW I was looking through the lastest copy of "Atheisists Today" waiting at the grocery store checkout line and there was a poll taken amongst young female atheisists on love. Turns out 99% of them find older agnostic men to be a turn on and very sexy! I know, I know, you'll say you fall in the 1% category. :)


I guess I give a teeny bit of myself to doubt. But not much. I'm totally content and convinced with my current beliefs. I have friends who are more teetering between god and no god, and i know that i'm much more stable than they are. I think my ideas originally spurned from my father's disbelief. He grew up in a catholic household and his parents were complete jerks. I've seen more bad come out of religion than good...so i can't condone it, but that's different than there being a god, i know. I guess i just hate religion so much that I have to say there is no god, but i can leave room for the kind of god you talk about, just a little.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Dec 9 22:29:02 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>well i wonder if i sound ignorant or closed minded but i saw an open forum and thought maybe this was a place to let out some ideas that the immediate around me hardly ever comment on. ahve fun with this thread and try not to "flame" me too bad


Feel free to say whatever here :)


 
Aeon Posted: Tue Dec 9 22:30:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hey, I believe in God but I don't worship him. I'm tired of my friends, good christians, getting shit on by life. So I proposed a deal to the big guy, give me all the misery he can muster and just give my friends some happiness for a change. Me vs. God.


 
addi Posted: Wed Dec 10 06:50:32 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>Me vs. God.

Aeon vs. God zilla

Fight the good fight, and remember to watch out for his wicked left jabs.


 
FN Posted: Wed Dec 10 10:47:14 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>Hey, I believe in God but I don't worship him. I'm tired of my friends, good christians, getting shit on by life. So I proposed a deal to the big guy, give me all the misery he can muster and just give my friends some happiness for a change. Me vs. God.


That's stupid man, unless your friends would do it for you as well, which I doubt even though I don't know your friends.


I wonder, would you actually accept getting aids for example instead of one of your friends?


Also, sorry addi, but I am sure that there is no god except me.


 
addi Posted: Wed Dec 10 10:53:48 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Also, sorry addi, but I am sure that there is no god except me.

No need to apologise Christophe. You're still a young punk trying to get a toe hold on life. You're expected to have some mistaken beliefs at this point in your life : )


 
Aeon Posted: Wed Dec 10 12:18:34 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Aeon said:
>>Hey, I believe in God but I don't worship him. I'm tired of my friends, good christians, getting shit on by life. So I proposed a deal to the big guy, give me all the misery he can muster and just give my friends some happiness for a change. Me vs. God.
>
>
>That's stupid man, unless your friends would do it for you as well, which I doubt even though I don't know your friends.
>
>
>I wonder, would you actually accept getting aids for example instead of one of your friends?
>
>
>Also, sorry addi, but I am sure that there is no god except me.

Actually, yes, I would accept getting Aids instead of one of my friends and I KNOW they would do the same for me. That's just the kind of friends I attract, Chris.


 
FN Posted: Wed Dec 10 13:33:01 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon-> Hope that's true man, I really do. Don't really believe in that kind of thing though.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Dec 10 13:53:15 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  it doesn't matter if your friends would reciprocate the favor.
if you would only do it because they would do it for you cheapens it just a little.
i like to think that i would have the courage to lay down my life for my fellow man if it ever came to that, and when and if the time comes, i certainly won't be thinking "i wonder if he/she would do the same for me" ?


 
12q Posted: Thu Dec 11 07:48:43 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  wow i didn't realize just how quick things get posted here. i don't look for like a day and there are 18 posts. that pretty sweet. theres few things worse on the web then a "dead" message board. I like the idea of God and the "big box" if theres one thing i can be sure of in my life its that god can and will do anything. And as far as ive ever understood it god does asccept any of regardless of sins as long they accept and love jesus. in my experiance its been all of the people who have trouble accepting each other. It so dis-heartening to see some one calls themself a "christian" and then goes around being so... well i guess i don't need an adjective because im sure you can all think of something to add. I do think however that there is a hell and that true un-believers will be there. I don't see that as asign of an unmerciful god but thats because i see and know him to be perfect and just. This post is getting long and the one thing close to being as bad as a dead message board is the guy who always types way to much. So my last thought will be, darwin has been quoted as saying something very close to this(sry that im being so lazy and find the exact quote) "i never intended my evolution to be used on a macro scale. I only believe in my own theroy on a micro scale."


 
Michael Posted: Thu Dec 11 23:46:48 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Chanz I really appreciate you posting this. I've been looking for arguments people making against the bible for quite some time. I'm always interested in the why not's people have for Christianity. Used to be one of the people People. A lot like Saul of Tarsus really. Funny how things come around. I am interested in where you found these (website, book, etc.). Ok, onto the question I have for everyone else. For those who have experienced Christian teaching and shy away from it: Do you do so because of the religion (as opposed to the faith), or the doctrine of the religion, or some other concept? That is something i've long been interested in; what makes people draw their lines in the sand. Aeon, if you don't mind, I'd like to discourse on your faustian idea of making deals with God. I used to see things the same way. I'm interested in your view.


 
Michael Posted: Thu Dec 11 23:56:32 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Forgot an important point. It reiterates what someone else already said, I think. Do not read each verse individually. One must read it in context. It requires more reading (a section of verse or even a chapter(s)) but it clarifies some issues. The issue of the cherubim in Exo 25:18 is one such issue that is logically explained as Addison put it. Right then. Good day.


 
iggy Posted: Fri Dec 12 00:07:23 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Michael said:
>Chanz I really appreciate you posting this. I've been looking for arguments people making against the bible for quite some time. I'm always interested in the why not's people have for Christianity. Used to be one of the people People. A lot like Saul of Tarsus really. Funny how things come around. I am interested in where you found these (website, book, etc.). Ok, onto the question I have for everyone else. For those who have experienced Christian teaching and shy away from it: Do you do so because of the religion (as opposed to the faith), or the doctrine of the religion, or some other concept? That is something i've long been interested in; what makes people draw their lines in the sand.


it's nice to know that my frequent postings of articles are appreciated. i have views but people tend to look at fact and figures to back them up which due to my genetic flaw of not having a good memory is often used against me.

thus, the posting of people's views.

if u are interested in that link. here it is.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml

if you are interested in some reading material, i'm reading "The Changing Faces of Jesus" by Geza Vermes now.

it's an interesting book written by an ex-priest who reverted to his jewish roots which gives an equal voice to both new testament and non-bilical jewish writings and exploring the differing portrayals of Jesus that have defined two millennia of christian beliefs and speculation. In short, how and why a charasmatic holy man from palestine is elevated to divinity.




 
iggy Posted: Fri Dec 12 00:11:47 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i believe that the gospels are real. but a lot of them are lost in translation.

remember that a lot of words and phrases may be the same but have different meanings thus losing the essence in translation.

which is why i believe in the bible. but i don't trust the version that are out there.

unless we learn aramic, we will never get the real message.

a lot of the bible is censored due to many reasons. and when people are fanatical about keeping the faith, they tend to make Gods out of Men.

i am a christian, but i believe that they have made a God out of a Man with a Plan.




 
Michael Posted: Fri Dec 12 14:17:49 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  censored? oh, do tell! lol. I've never heard anyone say that before. I'm interested in how. Or do I have to buy the book? lol. THe last time the Bible was censored was, hmm. Brain lapse. Anyway, that one Council when they decided what was "devinely inspired" and what was just letters written by people. I feel bad that I don't remember. Aramaic would be useful if we were talking to Jesus the Christ himself, but the NT was written in Greek (in the least, most of it). You are right though. Translation makes things very difficult to understand. Like this one verse in the Letter to Romans. The verse use ek pistews eis pistin (i think. Been a while since I've studied that) which is cryptic in the slightest. But, like 12q said, long posts are as bad if not worse than dead ones. Have a good day.


 
iggy Posted: Sat Dec 13 07:55:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  no doubt that the bible was written in greek. but all of jesus's preachings and words are in aramic.

it's like jesus saying "i have a vision"
and the translator write "i need a pair of spectacles"


censorship does exist. when they compiled the bible commisioned by king james, they omitted a lot of material to suit the needs of the court and church.

i have to go thru my notes for this. will post it as soon as i find it :)



 
iggy Posted: Sat Dec 13 08:02:53 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  micheal, this would be an interesting read for you


http://petragrail.tripod.com/nicea.html


 
addi Posted: Sat Dec 13 09:40:25 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A mental game I sometimes "play" that can help me temporarily escape my ethnocentrism and biases.
I try to visualize myself as another person in an entirely different culture.
What if Addi wasn't a white American male? What if I was raised as a muslim in Saudi Arabia, with all the cultural norms and beliefs that came with it? Growing up here I was indoctrinated with a distinctly American Judeo Christiam set of values and norms. I had no choice in the matter. As I got older I was able to think outside myself and start questioning why I held the beliefs that I did.
Today 1 in 5 people inhabiting this planet are muslims. My Christian upbringing told me that no one enters the Kingdom of heaven except through Jesus Christ. Are a billion muslims going to spend an eternity in hell because they don't recognise Jesus as the son of god? What if I was that muslim in Saudi Arabia? Would I start questioning my beliefs about Mohammad and Allah? Would I start thinking that not all christians are infidels and in league with Satan? Can I worship Allah who seems to have such little regard for the place of women and celebrates the death of christian heathens (even women and children)? Can I as a christian believe in a god that would allow a majority of the world's population to be condemned to an eternity of damnation and suffering? What if I was chinese and raised as a Buddhist? What if I was Indian and a devout Hindu? Am I right in my beliefs and everyone that doesn't believe just like me wrong? Why was I born in an environment of "true" beliefs, and not in some south american jungle worshipping some monkey god?

Questions like these spin in my head untill I get dizzy and have to shut down and think of something else to keep my sanity. A lot of questions, but very few answers. It does help me escape my sheltered little world however, and see things from someone else's perspective, if only briefly.

So is there a god (allah)? I still don't know for sure. Somewhere buried beneath the deep cynicism I have regarding religion I hope there is, and that someday I'll have my questions answered. I am willing to stick my neck out though and say that I have serious doubts that he will be anything close to the god that my pastor and sunday school teacher led me to believe in.

Sorry for all the rambling here. A little off topic I guess.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Dec 13 11:01:32 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there addie.
a person's religion is usually a result of his/hers geography.
religion is man-made anyway. it has nothing to with spirituality or ideas, just a way of getting people to do what you want them to do, that's all.
you don't need to attend a worship service to pay homage to the god of your choice, you can do that in your own space anywhere on the planet.


 
Asswipe Posted: Sun Dec 14 03:06:03 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  hrmm havn't looked at this thread in a while

religion, when not corrupt, is completely about the ideas presented; the moral stories told, the way to live your life as a good person. Studied correctly, most religions all preach the same things: Good will to your neighbors, no one being perfect and the need for god's grace to reach the higher level of existance. And I think that's where they go wrong, in that last attribute, God's grade. People should not need a parent observer always watching them to keep them in check. It's pathetic.

but yeah, it is certainly used as a means of control. During ancient roman times, when suicide was quite common, the elite priests added suicide as a sin to stop people from killing themselves off. Life can be pretty rough... if you're a devout christian and could reach heaven just by ending your life... why not? so they added a few lines to put the actual believers in check.

i'm personally an athiest. The ideas of God/heaven/hell are so absurd, at least any ones that man has thought up and successfully sold to the masses thus far. I still deeply respect many of the lessons taught in the Bible though, but I can't take any of the supernatural shit seriously. I've been to church a few times and have a hard time staying in my seat when the instructor starts rambling off on "the lord this and all praise be to the lord and blah blah blah."

I meant to post some on the original topic a bit ago but i forgot about it. I think the note at the start of it covered up much of what i had to say. There are far better arguments one can make if they're attempting to make a lethal stab at the doctrine.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Dec 14 09:00:05 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ok, so i'm a sports nut. i live for pro football, pro tennis, pro golf, and college basketball. i love to watch and follow this stuff. but i know better than to take it seriously.
doesn't it just put a burr up your ass when you see an athlete, interviewed after a game, begin his interview with, " first i want to give all the glory to god for this performace", as if any deity could give a shit if so-and-so got 25 points and 3 assists in saturday's game ?
that is pretty much as arrogant as one can get isn't it ?
louisville cardinals rule !


 
addi Posted: Sun Dec 14 09:45:41 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>louisville cardinals rule !

Addi adds a loud amen to that hif! Except I have it on good authority that god is partial to the Nebraska Cornhuskers.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Dec 14 11:23:03 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>louisville cardinals rule !
>
>Addi adds a loud amen to that hif! Except I have it on good authority that god is partial to the Nebraska Cornhuskers.

possibly, but not when the ball is round.


 
choke Posted: Sun Dec 14 20:49:49 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  hey im new.. i guess im up against people older then me so im sorry if i offend anyone..
I choose not to indulge in religion. I have only a small amount of time on earth im not going to waste it on the easy way out. God. What a creation. One 2 explain everything we couldnt stand to leave unanswered. One to make us secure with a few rules. Then Jesus. Like the sequel to a movie. One to forgive us if we broke gods rules. Like a mafia connection who will get you into heaven and buy you gods love regardless of your past. It scares me that people can beleive this kindof stuff with their entire being.


 
libra Posted: Sun Dec 14 21:01:31 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  choke said:
>hey im new.. i guess im up against people older then me so im sorry if i offend anyone..
>I choose not to indulge in religion. I have only a small amount of time on earth im not going to waste it on the easy way out. God. What a creation. One 2 explain everything we couldnt stand to leave unanswered. One to make us secure with a few rules. Then Jesus. Like the sequel to a movie. One to forgive us if we broke gods rules. Like a mafia connection who will get you into heaven and buy you gods love regardless of your past. It scares me that people can beleive this kindof stuff with their entire being.

i definitely agree with you.

and welcome!


 



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