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What do you think?
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 15 18:56:00 2004  
  Well, since I've seen so much here I disagree with, I figured I might as well start a thread where I can right some wrongs. So, just tell me how you feel about religion. (christianity to be specific)


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jan 15 19:19:40 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Well, since I've seen so much here I disagree with, I figured I might as well start a thread where I can right some wrongs. So, just tell me how you feel about religion. (christianity to be specific)

so you are taking it upon yourself to show us the errors of our ways? how noble of you.

I'm just kidding with you. why christianity in particular?


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 15 20:12:20 2004  
  because he belongs to the organised religious christian church movement and thinks that christianity is the absolute right.




 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 15 20:17:30 2004  
  Well said, chanz!
I responded in the blasphemy thread. I think I'm being avoided now (or prayed for).



 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 15 20:34:32 2004  
  novrain said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Well, since I've seen so much here I disagree with, I figured I might as well start a thread where I can right some wrongs. So, just tell me how you feel about religion. (christianity to be specific)
>
>so you are taking it upon yourself to show us the errors of our ways? how noble of you.
>
>I'm just kidding with you. why christianity in particular?

Cuz' I'm a christian, so it's what I know, and as for your comment chanz, I'll ignore it. I don't need patronizing or insulting snide comments. That's not what this section is about. It's about answering questions people may have by using what I know, and I'll kindly ask all the others out there who think they're too good for christianity and just want to chide us, don't even post here, it's just pathetic.


 
Malik Posted: Thu Jan 15 20:48:38 2004  
  I don't believe it. (That's kinda the big thing that turns me off of a religion)
I don't like the followers
I don't like the belief structure of most religions
I don't like the fanaticism
I'm going to burn in hell (or What the crap did the middle ages do?)

Section one: I don't believe it
I used to be a Christian. I grew up and was raised a Christian in a Christian household by Christian parents who regularly attended a Christian church. And then, I stopped believing in Christianity. I'm not going to show how I came to be a confirmed agnostic (I don't know shit, but at least I know that I don't know shit) 'cause it's too damn long. So it's kinda hard for me to be a Christian.

Section two: the followers
I've had a pretty bad experience with Christians that I've dealt with. The large majority of Christians that I know are just social Christians. I've been to "youth group" (never invited to the actual Church service...) and it's filled with people who come Sunday nights, but are expected to still be hungover from Saturday night come Sunday morning. From what I've seen, a large amount of Christianity is a popularity contest, except with Jesus as the friend that everyone wants to be with. Kids pull out their pocket bibles and have bible verse numbers (not the verse, but the citation) on their letter jackets, and ask each other out with "I think God wants us to be togeather."

And I'm okay with that. I think that it's great for people to have something to believe in and be fanatical about. Sure, it gets annoying, but that's not why I feel resentment. All their non-outside actions show that they don't follow the codes that they say they follow. I know about three or four Christians who actually follow their religion, based on their actions. (And I respect those people very much.)
Here follows basically the paraphrased text of a conversation with one of my friends over Christianity.
--
Me: So, if there is no way for it to be proved, why do you believe Christianity truer than Islam or Buddhism or Judiasm?

Him: Because those religions aren't true.
--
Eventually, he got pissy because I was attacking his religion. Later, someone who overheard the conversation (she goes to his church) came up to me. She told me that it was rude to try and insult his religion like that. I told her that he had started the conversation and was just defending my religion. She asked me what religion I was, and, upon hearing that I was a confirmed agnostic , she gave a fake laugh, saying that it wasn't a religion. I had to restrain myself. Now, You may not be one of the hypocritical Christians I talked about, but look at how many people are.


Section three: the belief structure of religions
People believe the religion that they are brought up in as either a child, or a close affiliation (people who convert in prison, etc). If you grow up in a Christian household, you are brought up with the idea that Islam is wrong. Maybe not necessarily wrong as in morally bad, but wrong as in not factually true. And it's true the other way around. The idea that my beliefs are based on who I grew up with just never really felt right.

Section four: The fanaticism
The Church is right. This is the principle that Christianity is founded on. If The Church wasn't right, then there goes the organization. Thus, anything that opposes the beliefs of Jesus (heliocentricism, racial/sexual equality, liberalism, etc.) is wrong and must be opposed. The large majority of Christians I know are quite righteously indignant, and bitch about how something (an organization, a policy, etc) isn't Christian. Thus morally wrong. Also, the bible is all right, and perfectly logical and infallable. According to whom? Itself. Proof indeed. Also, the bible as of the writing of that statement (it's in the new testament somewhere) wasn't really anything except for what we call the old testament.

Section five: I'm burning in hell (or What the crap did the middle ages do?)
The concept of hell (along with so much other things) was the result of an 800 year period where the Church found itself in a period of supreme power. So, in 800 years, Christianty became insanely twisted. Do you know how many people believe that the things in Milton's Paradise Lost are "God's honest truth"?

Concluding, I you asked for my problems with Christianity. I don't mean to be rude (I'm assuming that you're a christian), but those are my beliefs. Feel free to respond however you want.


 
Malik Posted: Thu Jan 15 20:50:00 2004  
  trogdor57 said:

>and just want to chide us, don't even post here, it's just pathetic.

I wasn't chiding you about christianity, but just saying what turns me off about it. Don't hate me!


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:02:20 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Well, since I've seen so much here I disagree with, I figured I might as well start a thread where I can right some wrongs. So, just tell me how you feel about religion. (christianity to be specific)

Your tone here is an example of what I hate most about religion. It's not enough for some people to believe a certain thing and follow a certain set of rules--and just be happy with their own choices--but they have to bully everyone else into doing the same thing, as if that would make it all true/right. Because of course a majority is never wrong. :P

Welcome to the forum, trogdor. We won't break you if you don't try to fix us. ;)


 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:07:53 2004  
  Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was the people before you. Your's was the kind of response i was looking for. Sorry! Anyway, I just want to concede that there are some very... confusing christians. They live two very different lives. I know, because I used to be one. Another good point was that your view can become skewed depending on when you were "saved." And i can see what you mean in the fanatiscism section, however, not all churches believe equal rights are wrong. And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time. But hey, it's your life, and i'm not about to tell you how to live it.


 
Aeon Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:20:49 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was the people before you. Your's was the kind of response i was looking for. Sorry! Anyway, I just want to concede that there are some very... confusing christians. They live two very different lives. I know, because I used to be one. Another good point was that your view can become skewed depending on when you were "saved." And i can see what you mean in the fanatiscism section, however, not all churches believe equal rights are wrong. And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time. But hey, it's your life, and i'm not about to tell you how to live it.



Ahem. Eternity IS a long time. But how do you know that you'll be burning in hell? Jews don't believe in Jesus and I hate to think that they all go to Hell considering they are God's chosen people. Muslims don't believe in Jesus and I hate to think that they all go to Hell considering they are some of the most obediant of God's subjects, (The non-terrorists anyways). I believe in God but I don't believe in people... and that is what religion is made by, people. Fallible people.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:27:36 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time. But hey, it's your life, and i'm not about to tell you how to live it.

HELL, there's something that always makes me go, "huh?" I mean, I know Satan is the ruler of Hell, but this God person is one messed-up jerk to send people there forever and ever. And EVER. Nobody deserves that kind of punishment, I don't care what they did. If we punished our criminals like that here in the States, there'd be a revolution! Sheesh.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:52:52 2004  
  trogdor57 said:

I don't need patronizing or insulting snide comments. That's not what this section is about.

who think they're too good for christianity and just want to chide us, don't even post here, it's just pathetic.

we have believes like you. in GT we have free speech.

u say your shit and we say ours.

i have a say, addision has a say, christophe has a say, malik has a say, ifihadahif has a say so does the rest of GT has a say, even u have a say.

but u did something that the rest of GT don't do, even though we argue and fight over matters in here...

we don't tell each other what we shouldn't post...
and here you are telling us don't even post in here? what make u God and judge us on our opinions?

such typical words from your kind isn't it?

since when did anyone in here say that he is too good for christianity?
it's just tat they don't suscribe to your doctrines.
if u can't take it, then just stuff it.

i'm a christian too, u don't see me posting my shit to convert people or to "right things wrong" do ya?

judge OUR posts as PATHETIC? *laughs*
who made u God and Deem yourself holier than us to tell us that our point of views are pathetic.



 
Malik Posted: Thu Jan 15 21:57:52 2004  
  I'm not one to say these kind of statements often, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? It's my life, you're not going to tell me how to live it? I thought you wanted to save me? I thought you were going to refute all my points (or at least give me a card with five easy steps), but you pretty much agree with me, except for the fact that not all churches believe in discrimination. And then, you say, "Well, you may be right about those points, but I'm hedging my bets on not going to Hell. I know I'm not going to be eternally raped by Satan, therefore I'm okay with my religious beliefs. But, you'd better be a Christian, 'cause Satan's one bad dude."

Okay, the whole burning in hell thing? Pretty much all of that is Dante and Milton and the Church of the middle ages. The Jewish scriptures (it's kinda the basis of Christianity, y'know?) say really nothing about it, and the whole idea of a physical devil was all Catholic scare-crap.

Okay, I don't get to join God's little club once I die. Damn. Literally. If I did believe in the God of the Old/New testaments (assuming they are the same, 'cause they seem like two radically different people/deities/parts of a trilogy to me), he's not exactly the kind of guy I'd like to hang out with. Reminds me alot of our High School administration. Gets really pissed when people do things that he doesn't like, so he floods the earth, rains fire and brimstone, strikes random bad guys dead, all the while keeping those loyal to him alive and well until a crazy-old age (some of them (see Elysiah) don't even die!). And then, after kinda abandoning his "chosen people" for about 5k years, he decides that he wants to have a change. So, he takes his son, and lets his people kill em. And, because of that, now he can justify letting us into Heaven, as opposed to letting us all burn in hell.
God then says, "I hope you're taking notes on this, Hebrews, because you should be pretty confused about this. None of the whole heaven or hell thing was in my past religion (oh, yeah, y'all aren't "chosen" anymore)." "But if not," he continues, "I'm sending some of my favorite people to enlighten you. Listen to them, they are right, and you're pretty much wrong."

I don't really think I'd like to spend too teribly much time with that guy.

Oh, and blastphemy is the only unpardonable sin, right? So I've kinda screwed myself in this post.

---
I'm sorry if this post was kinda flamy or the like. It's a much more violent than I usually am. I'm really not this mean when I'm talking about, well, anything else. I was banned from talking about religion (well, against) at my lunch table in the 7th grade...


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 15 22:04:50 2004  
  the concept of heaven and hell is taken too literally by people.

heaven wasn't meant for us. paradise was. paradise was created by God on Earth.
wat we did was to decide that wat we saw wasn't paradise.

Jesus's ideas and words was a blueprint for a better life for people.

He said he was a son of man, if u take the aramic transalation of it... it is just another way of addressing yourself. like "yours truly"

He said he is the son of God.
we are the children of God and we are created in His image. But somewhere along the line, people took that line too literal and decided to make a God out of a Good person with a Good idea.

His doctrines of salvation is simple.
Do good. Love yourself, love God, love everyone around you and u will have salvation.
isn't that simple enough? if u change your life around and be positive... your perception of reality will be happiness.
if u live a life of sin, your reality will be a living hell cos you will not know the existance of God at all.

understand the culture of that times. read text researched by christians and non-christians. and try to understand the meanings of the words in aramic written of the words of Jesus because a lot of meaning and the essense of his words are lost in translation.

remember, there is no gospel that is truly came from the mouth of Jesus. what u got were words that are passed on to us from his apostles. even so, which one of the gospels were written by the apostles themselves other than the words of Paul?

if u take the bible too literally and not understand that there are information lost and that those words are written on biased accounts, then u might as well believe what the media corporations and advertisers tell u


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 15 22:15:26 2004  
  chanz said:

>
>judge OUR posts as PATHETIC? *laughs*
>who made u God and Deem yourself holier than us to tell us that our point of views are pathetic.

And the choir sang
"AAAMen"

Trog, I understand you don't want to hear this but I really don't feel anger towards you. It's not worth it. I feel kinda sad for you. Your world is so small. Your view of who/what god is so small. I don't have all the answers, but I accept that, rather than adhear to silly dogma just to feel secure. As Sailovzi and chanz said, what you want to believe is up to you and that's your business. But looking down on us and trying to deliver us from evil is crossing the line, even if your intentions are well meaning (we're a tough crowd here).

I don't know you but I suspect you have many more miles to walk in life. My sincere suggestion is to keep walking and observe life silently for the next few miles. You have much to learn little grasshopper.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 15 22:22:27 2004  
  advice from the resistance.

"do not try to start a holy war here.
too much blood has been shed through the name of God. accept that no religion is holier than the rest. there is one God, but there are many languages and cultures. your God is their God, and vice versa"

God to you is God.
to some it is yahweh, jehovah, allah, buddah, astorah, shiva...

to some it is beer...

to some it is a playboy bunny...

let it be.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 15 22:26:46 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
> 1) And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time.

2) But hey, it's your life, and i'm not about to tell you how to live it.

such irony and contradiction in (1) and (2)

i have a website to say to the above....

http://www.flooble.com/fun/go.php


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Jan 15 22:36:56 2004  
  addison said:
>chanz said:
>
>>
>>judge OUR posts as PATHETIC? *laughs*
>>who made u God and Deem yourself holier than us to tell us that our point of views are pathetic.
>
>And the choir sang
>"AAAMen"
>
>Trog, I understand you don't want to hear this but I really don't feel anger towards you. It's not worth it. I feel kinda sad for you. Your world is so small. Your view of who/what god is so small. I don't have all the answers, but I accept that, rather than adhear to silly dogma just to feel secure. As Sailovzi and chanz said, what you want to believe is up to you and that's your business. But looking down on us and trying to deliver us from evil is crossing the line, even if your intentions are well meaning (we're a tough crowd here).
>
>I don't know you but I suspect you have many more miles to walk in life. My sincere suggestion is to keep walking and observe life silently for the next few miles. You have much to learn little grasshopper.

ah, and here addie and I have found some common ground. I couldn't have said it any better.
Your Christian zeal is ok with me, but I and many others do not share it.
I'm a firm believer in freedom of worship, but you should never assume that your way is better that someone else's way. Christianity is a relative newcomer in the world's religions and if you are a "born again" Chrisitan as I think you are, that is a relatively new wrinkle in the world of Christianity.
It has been my experience that "born again" Christians are very quick to judge others and that is just wrong and it serves to alienate people, much as you have done in a very short time here in gt.
chill out dude, enjoy the ride.
we're from all walks of life and faith here, but we're all good people too.


 
Howitzer Posted: Fri Jan 16 00:08:41 2004  
  Malik, you spend a lot of time typing something that i WOULD write, but i am not trying to convert anyone to be agnostic. i just let people have thier fun with religion, while i try my best at spiritualism, not forcing my differences on anyone because the idea of being agnostic is that there IS something out there, i just know it is NOT what the organized religons are doing. so, i let them be.


 
antartica Posted: Fri Jan 16 00:26:36 2004  
  bah.... you are all delusioned...

religion is a figment of man's twisted imagination...

we've been through this before kids...it's so simnple...:

live

die

get up there or get down (whichever way you prefer)

see this rastaman with the mother of all dreadlocks passing out joints and bongs

smoke

be happy... =)

any questions?


 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 16 04:27:40 2004  
  "It is not necessary to convert anyone to catholicism. It is better to help a muslim be a better muslim, a buddhist be a better buddhist and a christian a better christian."

~ mother theresa


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 16 07:04:30 2004  
  ifihadahif said:

>
>ah, and here addie and I have found some common ground. I couldn't have said it any better.

Hell freezes over
Pigs fly
Addi faints at his desk



*I'm heading up to Louisville today to pass out tracts on street corners to wayward souls. One is titled "In heaven there are no Republicans" The other is "Thong today...Hell tomorrow!"

Peace, Bro : )


 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 16 07:25:51 2004  
  Ok, sensing some serious animosity. Let's start with:

I'm sorry for my previous phrasology. It's obviously pissing a lot of people off. So let's try this again. Post here if you want. Feel free to say what you want. If you want to ask a question, then you can post it here, or contact me on AIM, at the name trogdor57.

Anyway, more to the point, it's like I said, I'm here to answer questions, not judge anybody. I'm trying not to be your standard christian, the type whom people hate. I don't want to curse people. Especially tell them to go to Hell. I found out what it's like, and I don't wish that on ANYBODY! It's just wrong.

Sorry again,
trogdor57


 
sweet p Posted: Fri Jan 16 08:26:43 2004  
  addison said:
>chanz said:
>
>>
>>judge OUR posts as PATHETIC? *laughs*
>>who made u God and Deem yourself holier than us to tell us that our point of views are pathetic.
>
>And the choir sang
>"AAAMen"
>
>Trog, I understand you don't want to hear this but I really don't feel anger towards you. It's not worth it. I feel kinda sad for you. Your world is so small. Your view of who/what god is so small. I don't have all the answers, but I accept that, rather than adhear to silly dogma just to feel secure. As Sailovzi and chanz said, what you want to believe is up to you and that's your business. But looking down on us and trying to deliver us from evil is crossing the line, even if your intentions are well meaning (we're a tough crowd here).
>
>I don't know you but I suspect you have many more miles to walk in life. My sincere suggestion is to keep walking and observe life silently for the next few miles. You have much to learn little grasshopper.



Addi, you're nice.
: )


And mister trogdor57...there is a big difference between "righting some wrongs" and "answering questions". I'm not even sure anyone had questions to ask in the first place...
I'm really confused as to what you expected to happen in this thread.
Moreover, I do not see why you should be the only one who can answer questions about religion/christianity. I'm not here to argue with you or tell you why I think you're wrong. I just want you to understand that nobody here needs "saving" and IF that's what you're looking to do, you're probably better off looking somewhere else.


 
misszero Posted: Fri Jan 16 08:27:59 2004  
  i'd like to back addi up, is not the road to hell paved with good intentions?


and I'd like to back up everyone else who said 'to each their own'. that's my motto. i was raised in a religious house (not to the point of fanaticism though, lucky for me), I went to catholic primary school, catholic junior high, not to mention senior. Religious education was compulsorary for all of these years. And I never ever enjoyed it until junior high school, when we began to learn about morals and ethics and things that aren't just christianity. and then in senior school, we learnt about other major religions. and I adored it.

Its my feeling that a lot of people turn to religion because they're scared. exactly what they fear varied, but meaningless is a big one. The entire human race, of course with exceptions, wants desperately to believe there is something more to everyday survival and existance. That we are more than organisms. That we are 'made in the image of god' and that when we die, we do not simple return our elements to the earth, but send something up into the sky or where-ever. Now, I want to think that too. I envy people who have beliefs strong enough. But i think organised religion, for the most part, is a total sham. especially post dark-ages christianity. the very idea of 'Indulgences' (and if you're a christian, you really oughta have learnt about these things. There's bad and good here, as with everything) was enough to cement my feelings that it was complete hypocrisy, and that I didn't want to align myself with that. So I don't any longer. and that's okay with me. right now, I'm agnostic, along with my father (he's an engineer, agnosticism is totally logical to him) and i read a great deal about spirituality and mysticism and all that other new age crap (heh). One dfay i might find somthing that I will adhere to exclusively. But I very much doubt it. I think that my stew of ideas will just continue to gathr new ingrediants as I go along, for example my motto (to each their own) came from the wiccan creed 'and ye harm none, do as ye will' (or something to that extent) i appropriated a number of ideas from anton la vey's book (like the concept of avoiding 'psychic vampires' lord, that was better for my mental health than anything else i've ever been exposed to) and despite the protests of some fanatical christian associates, I DO have morals and ethics. Its not like people who don't believe in your god go around kicking puppies and eating babies, you know.

but yeah. it all comes down to (as far as I'm concerned) whatever melts your butter. but please don't try and convert anyone, unless they want to be. I mean, for one thing, those mormon dudes who go around knocking on doors are the ones a lot of people I know have successfully corrupted from their holy ways - the temptation to piss you guys off is just too strong for us heathens.



 
sweet p Posted: Fri Jan 16 08:28:51 2004  
  PS. I just realised that for some reason, I assumed that you are male...sorry if you aren't.


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 16 08:53:29 2004  
  Sweet P said:
>PS. I just realised that for some reason, I assumed that you are male...sorry if you aren't.

HaHa! Females are okay too though.



Poor Trog. Like one of the christians in Rome. Stuck in the middle of the collusium surrounded by wild GT lions ready to pounce!


I'm just a soul who's intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood
(Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, The Animals)


 
webmaster Posted: Fri Jan 16 09:12:04 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time.

That you stressed the above, is that the reason why you believe in your religion - that you're afraid of the punishment? If it were even a tiny reason for your belief, something is wrong...


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 11:46:59 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was the people before you. Your's was the kind of response i was looking for. Sorry! Anyway, I just want to concede that there are some very... confusing christians. They live two very different lives. I know, because I used to be one. Another good point was that your view can become skewed depending on when you were "saved." And i can see what you mean in the fanatiscism section, however, not all churches believe equal rights are wrong. And finally, as for burning in hell, just keep in mind that that is an eterninty of suffering. Let me repeat that: An ETERNITY!!! That is a LONG time. But hey, it's your life, and i'm not about to tell you how to live it.

Damn man how can you live like that?

You really like being some 'power's' bitch?

Because that what it comes down to in the end. You can't fix stuff yourself without any help from your bigger brother sort of speak and if you don't do what he says he'll punish you.



Seriously, let god try me, I'll kick his ass


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:07:13 2004  
  Let's make some stuff clear:

I am against any form of religion.

I am not afraid of whatever punishment any god might want to do to me even if they did exist.

I truly feel sorry for people who "believe". Really, it's not that I want to patronise them or something but I truly think they need some help.

On the other hand, I don't believe in helping people, everybody should take care of his/her own shit, I got mine. So if I say something it's not because I want to help you but just because I want to give my opinion whether you want it or not (don't we all love GT? :o)



I think you are either young (let's say under 20-25 or so) or either over 35-40.

I assume that you have grown up in a very religious family, if not you will probably live in a community that's like that. Otherwise you probably found your religion at a relativly young age and clinged onto it because of your feeble youthful mind and in case you're older probably found it after some traumatic shit has happened to you (death of a spouse for example).

I assume you're still young though because of the way you write (not a pun just an observation).

You have probably grown up in a very safe and protected enviroment.

You are probably a white male with brown hair.

I could be wrong but that's just more or less how I picture you.


Anyway,

I feel sorry for you that you have to live in fear of going to hell.

It's ok for yuo if that's the way you like it, but don't go telling people that they will or have a chance of going to hell because of 1 simple fact: you DO NOT know that.

There is no way you could. Nobody ever came back from the dead and told what it was like.

I can't really understand how people are still fooled by a thing so full of incredible contradictions.

If I'd start a religion you could be sure it wouldn't have shit like that in it.


 
webmaster Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:32:13 2004  
  trogdor must have made Christophe really pissed. He's usually blunt and straightforward, but this was really scathing... :)

Chris, if you were to start a religion, I'll be first in line. To punch you.


 
marsi Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:33:51 2004  
  I was brought up in a Christian home. I still believe in god, but I don't believe that it should really be like Catholics or Budhists or the other religion says it is.
I don't believe in organized religion - like going to mass every sunday.
I don't think god gives a damn if I worship him (or her or it).
I try to do the right things, but not to avoid the eternity in hell. I do this for me today.



 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:44:52 2004  
  webmaster said:
>trogdor must have made Christophe really pissed. He's usually blunt and straightforward, but this was really scathing... :)
>
>Chris, if you were to start a religion, I'll be first in line. To punch you.

i'll fight ya for that chance hahahahahhahaha


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:49:07 2004  
  webmaster said:
>trogdor must have made Christophe really pissed. He's usually blunt and straightforward, but this was really scathing... :)
>
>Chris, if you were to start a religion, I'll be first in line. To punch you.

In my religion punching somebody is a sign of submission to them.

Although you are unworthy, you can be loyal slave which is responsible for keeping GT online.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:50:40 2004  
  I wasn't pissed by the way :o)

I'm just stunned about how much crap somebody can believe and still take it seriously.

Just my point of view ofcourse


 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:52:09 2004  
  LMAO

JQ, u can be my co-leader of the resistance with dan...

together we will stop christophe in his quest ... watever his quest might be


 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 16 12:54:19 2004  
  Christophe said:
>
>I'm just stunned about how much crap somebody can believe and still take it seriously.
>


no no u're not alone.

i hate it when people come in and try to save us when we don't need any for the "greater good"

wait... which means i hate u too ;o) hahahahhhahahahaha



 
webmaster Posted: Fri Jan 16 13:15:35 2004  
  chanz said:
>LMAO
>
>JQ, u can be my co-leader of the resistance with dan...
>
>together we will stop christophe in his quest ... watever his quest might be

Why don't we just let Chris live his fantasy and laugh behind his back. Let him be Neo, and we'll be the KFC men.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 13:52:41 2004  
  webmaster said:
>chanz said:
>>LMAO
>>
>>JQ, u can be my co-leader of the resistance with dan...
>>
>>together we will stop christophe in his quest ... watever his quest might be
>
>Why don't we just let Chris live his fantasy and laugh behind his back. Let him be Neo, and we'll be the KFC men.

*has no clue about it all*

yes! I rule! I rule! Yay for me!

*looks around smiling like a happy evil tyrant*


 
Malik Posted: Fri Jan 16 14:25:45 2004  
  *sits back and gives a heavily content sigh*

Nice thread guys, I really enjoyed it. :)


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:29:40 2004  
  Christophe said:


>I think you are over 35-40.

>You are probably a white male with brown hair.

OUCH!!



 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:40:38 2004  
  OK, let me fix something here. I don't live in fear of Hell. Some might have joined for that reason, and that's wrong. It's wrong to believe in something because of fear. I do it because I love God, and anyone who doesn't want to hear that, sorry, but y'know, "freedom of speach" and all that.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:41:47 2004  
  PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Good job for guessing.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:41:47 2004  
  PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Good job for guessing.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:57:33 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Good job for guessing.

I have removed all doubts concerning my supremacy once more


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:59:02 2004  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>
>
>>I think you are over 35-40.
>
>>You are probably a white male with brown hair.
>
>OUCH!!
>

Wasn't talking about you :o)


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 16 15:59:36 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Good job for guessing.

I wasn't guessing by the way.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 16 18:37:27 2004  
  Sorry, nice analysis. ^_^


 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 16 20:02:53 2004  
  webmaster said:
>chanz said:
>>LMAO
>>
>>JQ, u can be my co-leader of the resistance with dan...
>>
>>together we will stop christophe in his quest ... watever his quest might be
>
>Why don't we just let Chris live his fantasy and laugh behind his back. Let him be Neo, and we'll be the KFC men.

u'll be the KFC man haha...

maybe i'll be Agent Smith... hmmm....
only this time i'll kill that Neo




 
choke Posted: Fri Jan 16 23:10:17 2004  
  In the interests of trying not to make your day any worse Trogdor, Im going to ask you some questions because it seems that all anyone has done on this thread is abuse you and i feel kinda mean on their behalf. I cant gaurantee my questions wont offend you, but i am interested so please just answer as many as you can cause im really curious as to how you could live like this. (please note: how you could live like this is not aforementioned in an angry outburst kindof way - just a mildly interested tone)

Were you brought up christian or decide yourself? If the latter, why? If the former, is your family a happy one?

Do anti-religion people anger you? Feel free to answer this as powerfully as you want, seeing as many on this thread have explained in great detail why religious people anger them.

Is there a reason behind pain, suffering and death to the innocent? I dont think anyone could answer that question, but im interested as to whether god is to be blamed or praised on this one.

I have more, but those are the most pressing at the moment and i dont want to overwhelm you with questions before you can politely tell me to stop. Which i wouldnt hold against you if you decided to do so.


 
Malik Posted: Sat Jan 17 00:36:35 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>I do it because I love God, and anyone who doesn't want to hear that, sorry, but y'know, "freedom of speach" and all that.

Yes! You have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say! If you want to shout that you love God from the rooftops, then by God do it! As somebody said, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say such damned lies!"

But, when you say this, I also have the right to respond to what you say, and disagree with it. I don't love God. I really don't want to hear about it. But I do believe that, if it is your opinion, you should be able to discuss it. As should I be able to debate it. We should be able to have a lively conversation.

But, if you want a place to just seed your beliefs and convert everyone, this probably isn't the place. Don't let me discourage you though. If you believe you were chosen by God to do it, you should have the right. You _will_ meet opposition, but that is _our_ right to respond to you (for good or ill). If you don't want people attacking your beliefs, then don't show them. But if you say something (or anything at all), especially here, you're going to find someone who disagrees. Hell, some people might disagree with you just to take the opposing side.

So, I respect you for your opinion, and I believe you should be able to say it, but don't be surprised when you are met with people who don't agree with you.



 
Puck Posted: Sat Jan 17 05:16:52 2004  
  Voltaire - God Thinks

God thinks, all blacks are obsolete farm equipment.
God thinks, the Jews killed his son and must be punished.
And God thinks, the white man is Satan.
God, they know what God thinks.

God thinks, we should all convert to Judaism.
God thinks, we must all be Christians.
And God thinks, we should all embrace Islam.
God thinks the only true religion is Hinduism.
And I, I know what God thinks, God thinks you're a waste of flesh.
God prefers an atheist.
God. God.

God thinks all people like you are hateful.
God thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation.
Self-righteous, judgemental, first to throw the stone.
Using his name, for your own protection.

God thinks, the Sun revolves around the Earth.
God thinks, there was something very wrong with Copernicus.
God thinks, abortion is murder.
And God thinks, everything that science gave us is wrong.
God thinks, women deserve it.
God thinks, AIDS is a form of punishment.
I hate people who blame the devil for their own shortcomings.
And I hate people who thank God when things go right.
And I, I know what God thinks, God thinks you're an idiot.
God prefers a heretic.
God. God.

God thinks all people like you are hateful.
God thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation.
Self-righteous, judgemental, first to throw the stone.
And you're using his name, for your own agenda.

God is a Liberal, God is a Democrat, God wants you to vote Republican.
Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of God, and says it's absolute truth.
It's lies and it smells like death.
And it's all in a day's work taking money from the poor.
Why do you think that god would need your dirty money if he wanted to start a holy war?
Self-righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone.
And you're using his name for your own protection.

God thinks puppies need to die.
And God thinks babies need to drown.
Cause God is neither good nor bad.
God is you and me.
God is everything.



 
antartica Posted: Sat Jan 17 05:29:17 2004  
  and where is God?

in my middle...


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 17 07:48:33 2004  
  choke said:
>In the interests of trying not to make your day any worse Trogdor, Im going to ask you some questions because it seems that all anyone has done on this thread is abuse you and i feel kinda mean on their behalf. I cant gaurantee my questions wont offend you, but i am interested so please just answer as many as you can cause im really curious as to how you could live like this. (please note: how you could live like this is not aforementioned in an angry outburst kindof way - just a mildly interested tone)
>
>Were you brought up christian or decide yourself? If the latter, why? If the former, is your family a happy one?
>
>Do anti-religion people anger you? Feel free to answer this as powerfully as you want, seeing as many on this thread have explained in great detail why religious people anger them.
>
>Is there a reason behind pain, suffering and death to the innocent? I dont think anyone could answer that question, but im interested as to whether god is to be blamed or praised on this one.
>
>I have more, but those are the most pressing at the moment and i dont want to overwhelm you with questions before you can politely tell me to stop. Which i wouldnt hold against you if you decided to do so.

Well, choke, let's see here. First, yes I was brought up in a christian home, and yes, It has been a happy life. It may have something to do with a true faith, but I won't go into that rant.

Second, yes, I do feel some anger towards ANTI-religious people. Mind the emphasis on anti. Atheists I can handle, but it's the people who will sort of Persecute christians who anger me. However, this works in reverse. I also feel some animosity towards any christian who think they're too good for non-christians.

As for pain and suffering, this is the way I was taught it: God gave man one very important thing, free choice. With this comes the fact that he doesn't want anyone relying on him for their whole life. Another thing that comes with that free choice is that evil people of the world can do what they want. And sad enough, God cannot do a thing about it, but we can. Finally, it's because Satan is actually in control of earth. As cheezy and scary as that is, it's how i've learned it. He makes us sick to turn us against God.


Anything else you want to learn, and either I can tell you, or I can consult someone who can, and get back to you.



 
webmaster Posted: Sat Jan 17 08:58:07 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>As for pain and suffering, this is the way I was taught it: God gave man one very important thing, free choice. With this comes the fact that he doesn't want anyone relying on him for their whole life. Another thing that comes with that free choice is that evil people of the world can do what they want. And sad enough, God cannot do a thing about it, but we can. Finally, it's because Satan is actually in control of earth. As cheezy and scary as that is, it's how i've learned it. He makes us sick to turn us against God.

Why would God give us free choice and then punish us if we chose otherwise? Why set this trap when it could have not been set at all in the first place?

It's like God has a cage of hamsters who live happily. Chocolate isn't good for hamsters but God knows hamsters like it. So he decides to place some chocolate in the cage. The hamsters that choose to eat it will be condemned. Why? Why start it in the first place when the hamsters could all die and go to heaven? Not enough place in heaven?


MILTON: Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift and then what does he do? I swear, for his own amusement, his own private cosmic gag reel he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch but don't taste. Taste but don't swallow. And while you're jumping on one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughing his sick fucking ass off. He's a tightass. He's a sadist. He's an absentee-landlord!

-- The Devil's Advocate


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 17 09:07:27 2004  
  trogdor, do you consider yourself to be religious or spiritual, and do you see a distinction in the two ?


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 17 09:13:36 2004  
  Trog, I was right about you having many more miles yet to walk in life (16 years old). I may have to retract some of what I said earlier (I have less patience with people much older)

When I was about your age I used to walk up to people's homes, by myself, and witness to them, hoping to "save their souls from satan".
If you feel the need to come on here and answer our religious questions then go for it. You'll have to expect the kind of reaction you're getting though.

I'm fairly sure you're a good kid with a good heart just trying to make the world a better place. While you and I have two totally different mindsets right now I understand more than you think where you're at right now in life's journey (sounds a little condesending of me I know, and I don't mean to come across that way).

Keep an open mind along the way.
Understand that you don't have the corner on truth.
Learn from others.
Remember the most important lesson from the Bible is to love others and not condemn them.
God Speed!



 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 17 09:47:50 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Well, choke, let's see here. First, yes I was brought up in a christian home, and yes, It has been a happy life. It may have something to do with a true faith, but I won't go into that rant.


Aha, I knew it.

Protective christian family :)

I'm even better than I thought


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Jan 17 12:37:51 2004  
  i didn't read the whole thread, but i think i get the idea.

I also was raised in a "protective christian family." I'd still like to say I'm a firm believer. Its my choice, my opinion, and what i consider right. I've found, however, the best way to witness to people is be a good example. (how cliche) You'll just push them farther away if you push religeon on them. Which is the impression I'm getting.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 17 13:24:27 2004  
  No offence but if you ask me you wouldn't be so religious if you had had some serious problems to go trhough during your youth.

That way you wouldn't be able to believe in shit like that anymore.

Maybe some day you'll learn.


 
antartica Posted: Sat Jan 17 14:42:23 2004  
  addison said:
>Trog, I was right about you having many more miles yet to walk in life (16 years old). I may have to retract some of what I said earlier (I have less patience with people much older)
>
>When I was about your age I used to walk up to people's homes, by myself, and witness to them, hoping to "save their souls from satan".
>If you feel the need to come on here and answer our religious questions then go for it. You'll have to expect the kind of reaction you're getting though.
>
>I'm fairly sure you're a good kid with a good heart just trying to make the world a better place. While you and I have two totally different mindsets right now I understand more than you think where you're at right now in life's journey (sounds a little condesending of me I know, and I don't mean to come across that way).
>
>Keep an open mind along the way.
>Understand that you don't have the corner on truth.
>Learn from others.
>Remember the most important lesson from the Bible is to love others and not condemn them.
>God Speed!
>

damn... you never talk to the rest of us this nicely!
ha ha ha ha


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 17 15:23:27 2004  
  antartica said:

>damn... you never talk to the rest of us this nicely!
>ha ha ha ha

That's cuz you're an old fart! You fucking asshole! : )

(sorry bout the cussing, Trog)


 
antartica Posted: Sat Jan 17 15:52:37 2004  
  addison said:
>That's cuz you're an old fart! You fucking asshole! : )
>
>(sorry bout the cussing, Trog)

LOL! ! !

yes, and we all love you too... =)


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 17 16:04:50 2004  
  antartica said:

>
>yes, and we all love you too... =)

Careful... mat_j or dan632 are gonna read this and call us both a couple of flaming fairies. lol


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Jan 17 16:15:48 2004  
  Christophe said:
>No offence but if you ask me you wouldn't be so religious if you had had some serious problems to go trhough during your youth.
>
>That way you wouldn't be able to believe in shit like that anymore.
>
>Maybe some day you'll learn.

hardships don't always make you turn from faith. I'm not sure I can say this without getting into an argument with christophe, but the opposite may happen. Some say that when they face problems they find God again.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 17 16:39:30 2004  
  Yes I agree.

Sometimes people turn to faith because it's the last resort and they seem to get some placebo effect out of it, which is nice for them ocourse, whatever gets you going.

I don't think that as a young child you turn to religion because of problems you face though is the decision is entirely up to you.

If you are brought up in a very religious and protected family there's probably no reason to doubt all the religious stuff (not saying that people in protective families don't have any problems or anything but you know what I'm trying to say).

If you're not and the choice is entirely up to you and you go through some tougher times in your life, you start questioning all that. With me it was around age 12.

Before that I was just a roman catholic because well, I was born in Europe and it was the normal thing to do to let your children be baptised and what not (although my mother only did that in case I wanted to get married and have the big ceremony thing).



My grandfather used to say: Churches are full in times of despair.

I think that says it all.

People just search for something to hold on to and are prepared to try anything because they aren't stable enough to handle it themselves, just like people who think that hand-healers will cure them.


I see religion as a weakness, not as a strenght.


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 17 16:46:40 2004  
  SntSaturn said:

>
>hardships don't always make you turn from faith. Some say that when they face problems they find God again.

Have to agree with you here,SntSaturn. When I went into my religious phase it was precisely because of a devistating event in my life.
Then, of course, when things got easier later I kicked religion back out of my life and went back to my old sinning ways : )

(humans are such stinkers sometimes!)


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Jan 17 17:35:03 2004  
  I have faced my share of hardships. As has my family. I have gone through my phases where I thought it was very possible there may not be a God. Interestingly enough, questioning eventually made my faith stronger.

Maybe it a weakness. Maybe it isn't. I will take it either way.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 17 17:36:27 2004  
  Could you explain how it got stronger?


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Jan 17 19:04:56 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Could you explain how it got stronger?

Might not be the right word.
I suppose, I mean stronger by seeing/knowing that He got me through it.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 17 20:55:15 2004  
  From my point of view you got only yourself to thank for getting you through something.

How did 'he' help you?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 17 21:00:31 2004  
  webmaster said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>As for pain and suffering, this is the way I was taught it: God gave man one very important thing, free choice. With this comes the fact that he doesn't want anyone relying on him for their whole life. Another thing that comes with that free choice is that evil people of the world can do what they want. And sad enough, God cannot do a thing about it, but we can. Finally, it's because Satan is actually in control of earth. As cheezy and scary as that is, it's how i've learned it. He makes us sick to turn us against God.
>
>Why would God give us free choice and then punish us if we chose otherwise? Why set this trap when it could have not been set at all in the first place?
>
>It's like God has a cage of hamsters who live happily. Chocolate isn't good for hamsters but God knows hamsters like it. So he decides to place some chocolate in the cage. The hamsters that choose to eat it will be condemned. Why? Why start it in the first place when the hamsters could all die and go to heaven? Not enough place in heaven?
>
>
>MILTON: Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift and then what does he do? I swear, for his own amusement, his own private cosmic gag reel he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch but don't taste. Taste but don't swallow. And while you're jumping on one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughing his sick fucking ass off. He's a tightass. He's a sadist. He's an absentee-landlord!
>
> -- The Devil's Advocate

As for this, all I can say is that it is, in my eyes, a common misconseption. In actuallity, God hates to see us suffer. That's why he wants us to pray to him. If we pray, as long as it's reasonable, and in good motive, he will help us.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 17 21:05:41 2004  
  Thank you for some of the more positive responses ^_^ Anyway, I agree, It can help someone strengthened through traumatic experiences.


 
webmaster Posted: Sat Jan 17 22:38:27 2004  
  trogdor57 said:

>As for pain and suffering, this is the way I was taught it: God gave man one very important thing, free choice. With this comes the fact that he doesn't want anyone relying on him for their whole life. Another thing that comes with that free choice is that evil people of the world can do what they want. And sad enough, God cannot do a thing about it, but we can. Finally, it's because Satan is actually in control of earth. As cheezy and scary as that is, it's how i've learned it. He makes us sick to turn us against God.

>As for this, all I can say is that it is, in my eyes, a common misconseption. In actuallity, God hates to see us suffer. That's why he wants us to pray to him. If we pray, as long as it's reasonable, and in good motive, he will help us.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the relevance of your last post to what we were discussing. And what is this 'common misconception'? My question was (and still is) if God hates to see us suffer, then why give us free will in the first place, why place temptation in front of us?

If Eve didn't have free will, and if the tree of knowledge wasn't placed in the garden, we wouldn't all have have to go to hell, would we?

You see, man cannot stand it when they do not have an answer for something, and many of these stories (not only in the Bible, but in other religions too) were created to explain things which just don't have any explanation. How the cheetah got its spots? Why the dish ran away with the spoon?


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Jan 17 23:17:42 2004  
  Christophe said:
>From my point of view you got only yourself to thank for getting you through something.
>
>How did 'he' help you?

Its hard to explain, especially to someone who doesn't believe. God Promises a safe landing, not a calm passage. I know a lot of my overcomings are physically my doing. I suspect you want me to give you some divine act that has occurred in my life, but there hasn't been. It's hard to justify; it's just something i feel. It wouldn't be called faith otherwise.

Another note, related to Jason's comments, the place of temptation is there as our way to prove our love of God. (least that's my take)

I am solo
In this world of wet
And bitter is my temperament
I close the door to sentiment
And I relish all my youth
I realize that I am doomed
Fear of love and fear of You
But You give me the keys to paradise
It is You who sympathize
You and Your perfection grow
I am cradled in Your oceans throw
I crave Your freedom in this little ship
For You alone can chart my trip
And like these waves I lose my grip
And I sink into Your arms
-DCTalk "there is a treason at sea"


 
mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 01:28:24 2004  
  So Trog your christian eh, Catholic? If your not come back to the Holy see, see? If you don't i'll give you a knuckle sandwich, then i'll hug you and then we'll go and drink hard spirits.

And please don't offend god by saying you don't drink alcohol, why else would he allow the holy communion to be pure grape blood?


 
mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 01:40:10 2004  
  addison said:
>antartica said:
>
>>
>>yes, and we all love you too... =)
>
>Careful... mat_j or dan632 are gonna read this and call us both a couple of flaming fairies. lol


Awe come on i thought you had more respect for me than that Addi, i'd never be so libelous.

You flaming fairy


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Jan 18 03:03:51 2004  
  I'm a blob of custard, I cant be nailed to any wall.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 18 06:44:17 2004  
  mat_j said:
>So Trog your christian eh, Catholic? If your not come back to the Holy see, see? If you don't i'll give you a knuckle sandwich, then i'll hug you and then we'll go and drink hard spirits.
>
>And please don't offend god by saying you don't drink alcohol, why else would he allow the holy communion to be pure grape blood?

Actually, I'm Methodist, one of the (laid back) protestant religions. I might go drinking with you, but:

...PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Sorry.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 18 06:50:18 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>novrain said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>Well, since I've seen so much here I disagree with, I figured I might as well start a thread where I can right some wrongs. So, just tell me how you feel about religion. (christianity to be specific)
>>
>>so you are taking it upon yourself to show us the errors of our ways? how noble of you.
>>
>>I'm just kidding with you. why christianity in particular?
>
>Cuz' I'm a christian, so it's what I know, and as for your comment chanz, I'll ignore it. I don't need patronizing or insulting snide comments. That's not what this section is about. It's about answering questions people may have by using what I know, and I'll kindly ask all the others out there who think they're too good for christianity and just want to chide us, don't even post here, it's just pathetic.

Wow, Still can't believe I said this. Listen, to all those that this was directed at, I'm sorry. I was just so energetic at trying to do something "good" it kinda backfired, and became rather... um... "not so good" Anyway, sorry for the harsh treatment.

Trog out ^_^


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 18 06:52:02 2004  
  A very contradicting thing that always occurs when talking about 'god' is that he can't help but he does help and he doesn't want us to suffer but we do and he helps us with that but not enough to just not let us suffer which would be the same thing to him if he is all powerful anyway.

What kind of an egotripper is 'he' anyway if he wants everybody to be his groupie?


 
mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 07:42:11 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>mat_j said:
>>So Trog your christian eh, Catholic? If your not come back to the Holy see, see? If you don't i'll give you a knuckle sandwich, then i'll hug you and then we'll go and drink hard spirits.
>>
>>And please don't offend god by saying you don't drink alcohol, why else would he allow the holy communion to be pure grape blood?
>
>Actually, I'm Methodist, one of the (laid back) protestant religions. I might go drinking with you, but:
>
>...PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Sorry.

Ah come to the UK, we'll get you drunk


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 18 08:01:27 2004  
  webmaster said:

>I'm sorry but I fail to see the relevance of your last post to what we were discussing. And what is this 'common misconception'? My question was (and still is) if God hates to see us suffer, then why give us free will in the first place, why place temptation in front of us?

just wanted to comment, JQ, that it's been nice reading a few insightful thoughts from the great silent one on this thread. You should add your 2 cents more often


 
webmaster Posted: Sun Jan 18 08:13:56 2004  
  addison said:
>just wanted to comment, JQ, that it's been nice reading a few insightful thoughts from the great silent one on this thread. You should add your 2 cents more often

Aye, I surely will, if time allows... :)


 
webmaster Posted: Sun Jan 18 08:21:58 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Actually, I'm Methodist, one of the (laid back) protestant religions. I might go drinking with you, but:
>
>...PS, I'm 16, male, brown hair. Sorry.

Since when did having brown hair become an excuse for not drinking? :)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your reply about our discussion about free will. This, in my opinion, is one of the major fallacies in Genesis and since you brought it up, I thought you might have something insightful to say about it.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:21:13 2004  
  concerning hell and stuff...
here's something interesting that i dug up from my research.


Satan took away the fear of God’s judgment with Eve. He told her she would not surely die. She chose to believe the voice of the devil and chose not to believe the voice of Almighty God. She sinned and later died, just as God said—even though she had chosen not to believe it would happen.
There are many cults and false religions in this generation that choose to believe the lies of Satan. Some say there is no such place as hell. Some say it is hell living on this earth. Some admit that there is a hell; however, they believe God sends no one there. Some admit that there is a hell, but only the vilest people go there.
There is even a certain denomination that claims there is a purgatory. They teach that most people go there instead of hell, and that, ultimately, most will be in heaven.
All these false ideas and doctrines, which contradict the Word of God, come from the devil. They often have the same intent as Satan had in the Garden of Eden. That intent is, to take away the fear of God’s judgment. This deception worked with Eve. It works with millions of people today. It is written:
Job 28:28-AND UNTO MAN HE SAID, BEHOLD, THE FEAR OF THE LORD, THAT IS WISDOM; AND TO DEPART FROM EVIL IS UNDERSTANDING.
Pv 3:7-BE NOT WISE IN THINE OWN EYES: FEAR THE LORD, AND DEPART FROM EVIL.
Pv 16:6-BY THE FEAR OF THE LORD MEN DEPART FROM EVIL. Once this fear of God and His judgment is removed, then people go forth willfully and sin.
So often when a person dies, people will say, "He has gone to a better place now." They don’t understand that most people perish to hell, not to heaven. While they are thinking that person has gone to a better place, they are actually crying out in torment words like, "I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME." Indeed, Satan does deceive the whole world.

Some say it is wrong to scare people with such teaching. This statement is contrary to God’s Word. Most people are unsaved. This is confirmed in the Scriptures. Only a few inherit eternal life. When an unsaved person dies, they perish to a place called hell. In hell, they are tormented day and night in the flame. Their tongue, in some manner, is set on fire. There appear to be various levels in hell, which seems to be located down in the center or bowels of the earth. Some have described hell as being like a volcano, but a person’s spirit does not die. They will retain their memory of the past and of their loved ones. It appears they will remember every single time that they had a chance to repent and receive Jesus as their Savior, but they refused. In hell, the condemned person will also remember his loved ones and will be in further anguish at the thought of them also perishing to this place of torment. It may be said, any person who dies unsaved, it would have been better for that person if they had never been born. For a very short time, they lived on the earth in rebellion to God’s will. They refused God’s love and mercy. Now, they shall suffer; they shall be tormented.
The unsaved person will remain in hell until after the Millennium has expired on the earth. The unjust are reserved to the day of judgment.
At the time of the great white throne judgment, the sea, death and hell deliver up all the dead that are there for the final judgment. The books are opened. There they are judged by their works. They are judged according to what they did. For this brief time, they should have some relief from the horrible torment of the flame.
At some point during this process, it appears they are beaten with few or many stripes.
Finally, they are cast into the eternal lake of fire, which was prepared for Satan and his angels. This is called "the second death." There they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. There will never be any hope of escape. There will never be any hope of release. This is the eternal destiny of most people.
What a horrible time it will be! Dying, then going to hell, then to the great white throne judgment, and finally being cast into the eternal lake of fire. During this process, people will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but "you" yourself cast out-ref Lk 13:28. The people will be crying. There will be gnashing of teeth. This is the final destiny for all that reject the forgiveness of their sins which is ONLY possible through Jesus Christ. This is the end result for those that refuse to do the will of God. This is the end result for those that refuse to repent of all willful sin and serve the Lord.
Satan will ultimately be in the lake of fire. The false prophet and the Antichrist will be there. The rich man will be there. Many preachers, Sunday school teachers, church choir singers, and even missionaries will be there. Consider carefully. Again it needs to be said. Most people that have ever lived will be there. Only a few shall receive eternal life and forever be with the Lord.
We might say these words, 2 Cor 5:11-KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE ME


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:25:13 2004  
  interesting propaganda isn't it?

as i said to many people and to people now, i still believe that hell is just a perception of our reality. nothing more.




 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 01:54:08 2004  
  chanz said:
>interesting propaganda isn't it?

Fear, indeed, is a powerful master. What more the fear of eternal suffering. Even I got the chills (no pun intended) reading that.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 02:06:28 2004  
  webmaster said:
>chanz said:
>>interesting propaganda isn't it?
>
>Fear, indeed, is a powerful master. What more the fear of eternal suffering. Even I got the chills (no pun intended) reading that.

i fear no fire and brimstones...
but eternal suffering to me is no GT, no cigarettes, no porn, no sex, no shopping hahahahaha


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 04:33:54 2004  
  Physical pain is alot easier to accept when you know that nothing can touch your mind - you're proving that through your sacrifice of comfort. If there is a hell i shall revel in it because it means i didnt let anything - not even religion choose how i lived my life. With my own mind intact, i can choose to become indifferent. I suppose for me it all comes down to which i am more afraid of, physical pain or emotional pain.


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 04:53:25 2004  
  You know what Trogdor? I actually envy you. I would love to be able to beleive in something with my entire being. That would be the ultimate luxury for me. I would love to have someone/thing looking out for me every step of the way. I'd love to be able to place complete trust in something and know i wouldnt be let down. I'd love to have a purpose, a greater understanding. But i choose not to have any of this. Atheists are the loneliest but hardest people you will ever come across. They are also more likely to -live- because they know this is the only chance they'll get. Atheists turn inwards for support, or support each other, the way humankind should. The only reason i would ever become part of a religion is if i gave up my own character. That will never happen because if i did that, i would be defeating the purpose of living in the first place. Better to live for a short time and suffer the consequences forever, than to never live for yourself at all.


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 07:20:51 2004  
  choke said:
Atheists are the loneliest but hardest people you will ever come across. They are also more likely to -live- because they know this is the only chance they'll get. Atheists turn inwards for support, or support each other, the way humankind should.

I had this question for Libra recently, choke. I'll ask you as well. You state you're an atheist. How do you defend that belief? Atheists are certain there is no god. Trog is certain there is a god. Seems to me that you're kind of in the same place he is (opposite sides of the fence, but stuck in the same hole). Just curious as to why you don't allow for the possibility of a greater being?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 08:29:35 2004  
  Thanks, choke, I think... Actually, in a way, it's also hard to be a christian sometimes. When you're an atheist(just guessing here) it's a lot easier to do something that would, to a christian, be a sin. And some christians have doubts right before total understanding that will shake their whole foundation. Sorta... to the edge, then the center I guess. Anyway, you do none-the-less have a good point, it is much more comforting on the whole, to be a christian. I'm sorry if you've never felt that, but I guess you could say that's why I'm here... or something....


PS - Thank you chanz, you've nailed it on the head, in just a few paragraphs. ^_^


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 08:32:10 2004  
  And another thing, the terror and fear some of those verses mention is not fear like you and I percieve it, but from a celestial point of view. This is true with many things in the Bible. It's sometimes hard to understand the Bible, and it shouldn't always be taken literally.


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 08:49:47 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>And another thing, the terror and fear some of those verses mention is not fear like you and I percieve it, but from a celestial point of view. This is true with many things in the Bible. It's sometimes hard to understand the Bible, and it shouldn't always be taken literally.

Trog, stop it. You're giving me a stomach ache!


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 09:19:08 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Thanks, choke, I think... Actually, in a way, it's also hard to be a christian sometimes. When you're an atheist(just guessing here) it's a lot easier to do something that would, to a christian, be a sin.

I find that statement to be pretty arrogant. It implies that non-christians have no morals or values.
It's been my experience that it is just the opposite.
Many Christians use their "faith" as a crutch to do whatever they want knowing that they will be forgiven. Of course I'm aware that this is the exception, not the rule, never the less, it does happen.
A non-christian is no more likely to do something immoral than a christian.



 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 09:49:17 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>And another thing, the terror and fear some of those verses mention is not fear like you and I percieve it, but from a celestial point of view. This is true with many things in the Bible. It's sometimes hard to understand the Bible, and it shouldn't always be taken literally.

So how do we know what should be taken literally and what should not? Who decides, and does it mean we're condemned if we interprete it wrongly (despite good intentions)? If the Pope misinterpretes a point in the Bible and conveys the wrong message to the millions of Catholics in the world, what, then, are the implications?

Why so many grey areas that might lead to misunderstanding, confusion and error? Shouldn't the Word of God be absolute, not opened to misinterpretations and errors in translation, and available to every single person in the world, regardless of where they are born, and when they are born?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 10:01:52 2004  
  webmaster said:
>So how do we know what should be taken literally and what should not? Who decides, and does it mean we're condemned if we interprete it wrongly (despite good intentions)? If the Pope misinterpretes a point in the Bible and conveys the wrong message to the millions of Catholics in the world, what, then, are the implications?
>
>Why so many grey areas that might lead to misunderstanding, confusion and error? Shouldn't the Word of God be absolute, not opened to misinterpretations and errors in translation, and available to every single person in the world, regardless of where they are born, and when they are born?

Such is the word of King Thong !


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 10:20:42 2004  
  addison said:
>choke said:
>Atheists are the loneliest but hardest people you will ever come across. They are also more likely to -live- because they know this is the only chance they'll get. Atheists turn inwards for support, or support each other, the way humankind should.
>
>I had this question for Libra recently, choke. I'll ask you as well. You state you're an atheist. How do you defend that belief? Atheists are certain there is no god. Trog is certain there is a god. Seems to me that you're kind of in the same place he is (opposite sides of the fence, but stuck in the same hole). Just curious as to why you don't allow for the possibility of a greater being?


If there was he or she or it whatever would remove all doubt, there wouldn't be a reason not to.


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 10:26:31 2004  
  Christophe said:

>If there was he or she or it whatever would remove all doubt, there wouldn't be a reason not to.

??
I'm real old, christophe. Explain what you mean


 
Asswipe Posted: Mon Jan 19 11:17:29 2004  
  i'm an athiest because, besides the good ole question of "what started it all" there is no reason to think there's any great creator. first, why would a great power bother w/ our insignificant selves? Unless He gets something out of us living and dying, why would he have created us? I guess I can't say he doesn't, but it does go against the christian idea of a God.

Could God microwave a burrito so hot that even he could not eat it?(thanks to the simpsons for that one) if god does exist, he's certainly not all powerful because this is a contradiction in itself.

a heaven and hell? I don't think so... what's an eternity of boiling in lava or, on the other end, bliss way up w/ the clouds and naked babies and their halo's? After 10 days i'd be bored w/ the bliss and i'd get used to the lava. w/ out a body to sense and mind to perceive(like when you die), there can be no sensations, so boiling in lava wouldn't bug me in the slightest.

yes, i believe humans created religion to comfort them, to give them a slight crack of hope to cling to, to help get 'em through this life. good and bad shit comes from it.

if you're gonna be a christian, don't be certain about the existance of God because there's no reason to believe he exists. The Bible exists and has some really smart words in it on living a "good" life. Think of it as a collection of philosophy on living life, not the words of god, and you get a high-5 from me.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 11:28:12 2004  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>If there was he or she or it whatever would remove all doubt, there wouldn't be a reason not to.
>
>??
>I'm real old, christophe. Explain what you mean

If 'god' did exist he would gain nothing by letting people doubt 'him'.

If he's 'all powerful' (which like asswipe already said is a contradiction in itself) there would be no problem for him to just prove his existence.

If not it would mean that he commands total obedience from his servants whatever he does/happens and otherwise they'd be punished. Anybody ordered a tyrant?



By the way, it wouldn't matter to me if I knew for certain 'god' did exist though, I would never be so submissive to whatever power that might be that I'd live to obey commands.

Agree with what asswipe said as well.


 
SntSaturn Posted: Mon Jan 19 12:13:46 2004  
  I think webmaster made some comment that sparked this thought.

My interpretation is that God is a little more leniant. I really view christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. as all the same religeon. Whats the difference if he's God or Allah? Its still the idea of a higher being to believe in and the desire to serve him.

I got that impression when reading revelations. It said something about 6 religions.


 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 12:37:55 2004  
  SntSaturn said:
>I think webmaster made some comment that sparked this thought.
>
>My interpretation is that God is a little more leniant. I really view christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. as all the same religeon. Whats the difference if he's God or Allah? Its still the idea of a higher being to believe in and the desire to serve him.

That, I believe, is the stand of the agnostics.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 12:46:52 2004  
  webmaster said:
>SntSaturn said:
>>I think webmaster made some comment that sparked this thought.
>>
>>My interpretation is that God is a little more leniant. I really view christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. as all the same religeon. Whats the difference if he's God or Allah? Its still the idea of a higher being to believe in and the desire to serve him.
>
>That, I believe, is the stand of the agnostics.

I thought that an agnostic is one who does not confirm or deny the existence of god.
Does he exist ? "maybe, maybe not"


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 12:49:23 2004  
  I think logic proves the existence of a creator.
Whether or not that would be God is arguable, but there can be no doubt of a creator.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 12:49:23 2004  
  I think logic proves the existence of a creator.
Whether or not that would be God is arguable, but there can be no doubt of a creator.


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:24:05 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Thanks, choke, I think... Actually, in a way, it's also hard to be a christian sometimes. When you're an atheist(just guessing here) it's a lot easier to do something that would, to a christian, be a sin.
>
>I find that statement to be pretty arrogant. It implies that non-christians have no morals or values.
>It's been my experience that it is just the opposite.
>Many Christians use their "faith" as a crutch to do whatever they want knowing that they will be forgiven. Of course I'm aware that this is the exception, not the rule, never the less, it does happen.
>A non-christian is no more likely to do something immoral than a christian.
>

I agree with hif. Shocking!

I'm not christian, but I still have morals. But the morals I have learned come from my respect for and care for other humans and life itself, instead of my caring about where I'm going to go when I'm dead, or a respect for a creator. I care about others, I care about what happens to the world after I die, I don't care about what happens to me after I die.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:36:17 2004  
  I don't believe in a "creator" either.


Fact is that (most people) need somebody or something to look up to to feel secure that somebody wil take care of them if it's needed, and what would be better for that than an all powerful being, right?

I don't need or want that.

If you want somebody to look up to I'm your man.

Won't protect you though, learn to take care of your own stuff instead of looking for somebody or something else to do the job, because just like with any sort of god or person, in the end you have to do it yourself to get the job done the way it should be.


 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:43:25 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>webmaster said:
>>SntSaturn said:
>>>I think webmaster made some comment that sparked this thought.
>>>
>>>My interpretation is that God is a little more leniant. I really view christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. as all the same religeon. Whats the difference if he's God or Allah? Its still the idea of a higher being to believe in and the desire to serve him.
>>
>>That, I believe, is the stand of the agnostics.
>
>I thought that an agnostic is one who does not confirm or deny the existence of god.
>Does he exist ? "maybe, maybe not"

There are a couple of schools of thought. Some agnostics believe in a higher power, although they concede that it is impossible for us to understand it fully.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:46:22 2004  
  Christophe said:
>I don't believe in a "creator" either.
>
>
>Fact is that (most people) need somebody or something to look up to to feel secure that somebody wil take care of them if it's needed, and what would be better for that than an all powerful being, right?
>
>I don't need or want that.
>
>If you want somebody to look up to I'm your man.

Simply believing in a creator does not imply that said creator must be worshipped.
Your are correct in saying that most people have a need to worship.
Hence the plethora of religions man has created since the beginning of civilation.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:51:50 2004  
  I'll tell you something my grandfather who passed away a few months ago used to tell me.



There once was a farmer worked very hard and had several parcels of excellent land because of it.

One day the local priest asked if the farmer could show him his fields and crops.

They arrived at the first plot.
It was very well taken care of and looked very good as well. There weren't any weeds anywhere on the piece of land, just beautiful crops. Clearly the farmer must have spend days to get the ground the way it was.

"You have done a terrific job my friend, and god has clearly helped you in your labour as I see from the result.", the priest said as he was astonished by the work the farmer had done.

They went to the second plot, and several others after that, and they all looked marvellous. The priest thanked god for what he had seen and what god had created and given mankind.

They were walking to the farmer's last piece of land.

"Here it is", the farmer said.

The priest looked around but couldn't see anything but rocks, weeds, and dried up plants; all in all a desolate piece of wasteland.

"What happened here?" the confused priest asked.

The farmer replied: This is what god has managed to do by himself.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 13:52:44 2004  
  Why would that creator create then?


 
SntSaturn Posted: Mon Jan 19 14:03:06 2004  
  my understanding of agnostic is the maybe, maybe not thing.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 14:37:42 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Why would that creator create then?

Any number of reasons, maybe even by accident.
Who cares ? It happened, that's for sure.

I think I posted this here before on another thread. This from my philosophy class too many years ago.

Suppose you were walking through the woods far, far away from any cities or people and you found a watch. You pick this watch up and it is in perfect working order. Nice cover and workmanship.
Would you be inclined to believe this watch was made or created by someone ?
Logic dictates that this watch was made by someone, does it not ?
And doesn't this same logic apply to the universe ?



 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 14:51:24 2004  
  A watch can be made with your hands.

That's a whole different thing than creating laws of physics and a boundless universe.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:05:40 2004  
  Christophe said:
>A watch can be made with your hands.
>
>That's a whole different thing than creating laws of physics and a boundless universe.

Not really, creation is creation.
A watch, a universe, it's only a matter of degree.
To a stone-age tribe in the Amazon, a watch might be just as mysterious as the moon.


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:12:12 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>A watch can be made with your hands.
>>
>>That's a whole different thing than creating laws of physics and a boundless universe.
>
>Not really, creation is creation.
>A watch, a universe, it's only a matter of degree.
>To a stone-age tribe in the Amazon, a watch might be just as mysterious as the moon.

I don't agree with that. It's not along the same principles. You can explain changes in the earth by 'simple' geological processes...you don't need there to be a 'god'


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:13:17 2004  
  Nontheless, even if you didn't believe in a creator, then who created it all? The Big Bang? If so, then what started that. In my opinion, there was a Big Bang, but who got the ball rolling on it? The Creator. (or God, or whatever he'll be referred to at this point)

Also, I'll concede once again that there are some less than desirably wholsome christians out there. These are, from my point of view, the people who go to church out of routine, not the want to "grow spiritually"


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:19:35 2004  
  Ppl used to think the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it as well.

It's not because of the fact that you don't understand something (yet) that it is god's work.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:19:48 2004  
  libra said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>A watch can be made with your hands.
>>>
>>>That's a whole different thing than creating laws of physics and a boundless universe.
>>
>>Not really, creation is creation.
>>A watch, a universe, it's only a matter of degree.
>>To a stone-age tribe in the Amazon, a watch might be just as mysterious as the moon.
>
>I don't agree with that. It's not along the same principles. You can explain changes in the earth by 'simple' geological processes...you don't need there to be a 'god'

Yes, but isn't "god" a relative term here ?
Imagine trying to explain how a watch works to the stone-age tribe in the Amazon, then imagine an entity that is capable of creating matter from nothingness trying to explain that process to us.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:21:06 2004  
  Educate the stone-age guy and he'll understand.

An animal doesn't know how to operate a computer either, has 'god' made computers?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:22:56 2004  
  Christophe, start explaining in a bit more detail, you're kinda unclear



 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:24:14 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Educate the stone-age guy and he'll understand.

sure, and if the creator educated us, maybe could understand too.
Or it's possible that we are animals to the creator as animals are to us.




 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:25:59 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Christophe, start explaining in a bit more detail, you're kinda unclear
>


Lol.

You believe in a god and you call me unclear?


Lets just say I move in mysterious ways.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:27:09 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>Educate the stone-age guy and he'll understand.
>
>sure, and if the creator educated us, maybe could understand too.
>Or it's possible that we are animals to the creator as animals are to us.
>
>

So why doesn't 'he'?

And why would you assume that there is a creator anyway?

Again, it's not because you don't understand something yet that it is magical/spiritual.

Ppl used to think water and fire were gods as well.


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:31:48 2004  
  If the universe was created, where did the Creator come from? If the Creator had a Creator of its own, where did THAT one come from? Where do these questions end?

I don't believe that there was ever Nothing. It defies my sense of logic to think that once, there was no existence. This is why I don't believe in a creator. I don't think creation was ever needed.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:31:50 2004  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>Educate the stone-age guy and he'll understand.
>>
>>sure, and if the creator educated us, maybe could understand too.
>>Or it's possible that we are animals to the creator as animals are to us.
>>
>>
>
>So why doesn't 'he'?

What does it matter why he does or doesn't

>
>And why would you assume that there is a creator anyway?

Read the watch analogy.
The fact that the universe exists implies the work of a creator.
But only if you subscribe to logic.

We're not talking about magic or spiritualy here, only the fact that there must be a creator.




 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:33:36 2004  
  Of course it defies your sense of logic. We only have human brains, but god works on a celestial level. We can't comprehend that he has always been, or any kind of absolute nothingness. It's not possible.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:35:25 2004  
  Lol

What fact.

Seriously to me that doesn't imply anything.

Like Sailovzi said, you can keep going on forever then.

So the creator created himself or something?

Or 'he' has been there forever? If that is possible why can't the universe just have been here forever?


It's one contradicting thing after the other and there is no reason or justification at all to give credit to a 'creator'.


I could be god as well, there is no reason for you to know for sure, and you wouldn't be able to explain it either, does that mean you keep that in mind that I could possibly be the one you're praying to or believing in?


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:35:49 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Of course it defies your sense of logic. We only have human brains, but god works on a celestial level. We can't comprehend that he has always been, or any kind of absolute nothingness. It's not possible.


How the hell do you know that?


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:37:01 2004  
  'Only human brains'


Talk about having a low self esteem.

Why do you have to feel less then something else in order to be happy?


I think a lot of people are afraid of being 'number 1' because then the responsibility would be resting on their shoulders so once again they seek after a leader.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:38:44 2004  
  Well, for one thing, SCIENCE says, last I heard, we only use about ten percent of our brains. After taking up simple, moderate, and complex functions, we could still have the ability to try to even come close to grasping an eternity or nothingness. But, of course, that's just my own train of thought.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:40:18 2004  
  That's a reply (not an answer) to a question I didn't even ask.

How do you know everything you pretend to know?


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:44:30 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Well, for one thing, SCIENCE says, last I heard, we only use about ten percent of our brains. After taking up simple, moderate, and complex functions, we could still have the ability to try to even come close to grasping an eternity or nothingness. But, of course, that's just my own train of thought.


By the way,

Sometimes when I get something to drink I don't fill my glass to the top either, does that mean that empty space can do godlike things or comprehend them?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:45:13 2004  
  OK, fine then, back to the previous question then.

Christophe said:
>'Only human brains'


>Talk about having a low self esteem.

>Why do you have to feel less then something else in order to be happy?


>I think a lot of people are afraid of being 'number 1' because then the responsibility would be resting on their shoulders so once again they seek after a leader.

So you think all christians are just people with inferiority complexes and a fear of leadership? Interesting... but not really... I can understand why someone with a rebellious nature might not like the idea of a higher power, but beyond that, I'm a little confused to all this... animosity or whatever...


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:48:02 2004  
  Goodness, no. Besides, that's not nothingness. There's still something there, be it dust or moisture. In the case of creation, we're talking a void, with Nothing in it, and I never said those spaces had anything to do with the creation, just what was there beforehand.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:49:24 2004  
  Yes I think that.


And don't bother telling me some world leaders are christians.

Either they pretend to be, don't care about it, or still have the complex snce they'd think it's only worldly anyway.


'A rebellious nature' has nothing to do with it.

Hif keeps talking about logic, I'm applying it, you are just repeating the same clichés and dogma's as every religious person does.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:51:32 2004  
  So, once again, I have to ask, "Why all the animosity?"


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:51:45 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Goodness, no. Besides, that's not nothingness. There's still something there, be it dust or moisture. In the case of creation, we're talking a void, with Nothing in it, and I never said those spaces had anything to do with the creation, just what was there beforehand.


So what's your answer about the creator having created 'himself'?




Whatever you might want to tell yourself for whatever reason, there is no reason at all why 'a creator' or a 'god' would be the most logical/rational thing to assume, in any situation.


And if you do, you have to use equal standards and blame 'it' for everything bad as well and 'he moves in mysterious ways' doesn't say or explain anything, nothing could.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:52:41 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>So, once again, I have to ask, "Why all the animosity?"

Lol.

You mistake a discussion for animosity.


It just boggles my mind that you are saying and believing all of this.


You must be god.


I have seen a few others on tv who think the same.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:54:47 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Hif keeps talking about logic, I'm applying it, you are just repeating the same clichés and dogma's as every religious person does.

I don't think that psychoanalyzing every religious or spiritual person that has ever lived, as someone afraid of leadership can be construed as logical.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:56:47 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>Hif keeps talking about logic, I'm applying it, you are just repeating the same clichés and dogma's as every religious person does.
>
>I don't think that psychoanalyzing every religious or spiritual person that has ever lived, as someone afraid of leadership can be construed as logical.


Not understanding something and automaticly labeling it as 'god' because you don't know any better isn't either.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:56:57 2004  
  I really need to take a shower, but I dont want to miss anything good.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:57:51 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>I really need to take a shower, but I dont want to miss anything good.

Lol.

Know the feeling :o)

I'll be off soon though don't worry ;o)


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:58:07 2004  
  I'm not trying to be completely logical here. In my opinion, He's just always been there, nothing created him, and my thinking stops there, because after that, it starts to hurt. It's a little... groundless yes, but it's what I believe. And, I'll say this once again, I don't blame him for everything, some things yes, because they are blessings. However, not the bad, because he isn't vengeful, like he used to be. He doesn't do anything bad. It's like I said before, it's the fault of the bad people of the world, because of freedom of choice.


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 15:58:30 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>I really need to take a shower, but I dont want to miss anything good.

LOL. That's how I feel when I have to go to sleep.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:01:26 2004  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>Hif keeps talking about logic, I'm applying it, you are just repeating the same clichés and dogma's as every religious person does.
>>
>>I don't think that psychoanalyzing every religious or spiritual person that has ever lived, as someone afraid of leadership can be construed as logical.
>
>
>Not understanding something and automaticly labeling it as 'god' because you don't know any better isn't either.

That doesn't change the fact that you stated something completely illogical and claimed otherwise.
Also no is stating that "just because we don't understand it, that it must be god". You are putting words in someone else's mouth.
I merely stated that if something exists, then that implies a creator, pure and simple.
I don't care if you want to refer to that creator as god or bruce or whatever.
And I don't care if said creator feels the need to be worshipped or not, and I don't blame said creator for wrongs or praise said creator for rights.


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:01:27 2004  
  Intermission in the play "Waiting for Godot"
Gter's take a break, go to the restroom, go to the snack bar to get a soda and popcorn, and stretch, waiting for the 2nd half to begin...

....curtain opens again to applause, boos, hoots, and whistles...


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:01:43 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>I'm not trying to be completely logical here. In my opinion, He's just always been there, nothing created him, and my thinking stops there, because after that, it starts to hurt. It's a little... groundless yes, but it's what I believe.

This is how I feel about the universe itself, or at least, about whatever lies just outside of it. Why do you feel it must be some kind of intelligence?


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:02:31 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>I'm not trying to be completely logical here. In my opinion, He's just always been there, nothing created him, and my thinking stops there, because after that, it starts to hurt. It's a little... groundless yes, but it's what I believe. And, I'll say this once again, I don't blame him for everything, some things yes, because they are blessings. However, not the bad, because he isn't vengeful, like he used to be. He doesn't do anything bad. It's like I said before, it's the fault of the bad people of the world, because of freedom of choice.

Yes, My freedom of choice has created quite a few hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, tsunami's, bad harvests, meteor impacts, and so on.

Once again, you don't comprehend something so it must be 'god'.

How can you say 'he' isn't vengeful when your first post was about 'him' sending you to hell if you didn't live by 'his' views of right and wrong?

I'd wish you'd read your own post just for yourself and think about it in an objective manner and just think about it fo a while.

If nothing created 'him' why would it be so farfetched to assume nothing created the universe?

And again, how do you know that nothing has created him while you do know that he has created the universe withou anything to back it up?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:03:21 2004  
  addison said:
>Intermission in the play "Waiting for Godot"
>Gter's take a break, go to the restroom, go to the snack bar to get a soda and popcorn, and stretch, waiting for the 2nd half to begin...
>
>....curtain opens again to applause, boos, hoots, and whistles...

boos, hoots, and whistles ?
I know, I got this one. . . .it's the British House of Commons !


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:07:28 2004  
  If you are certain, beyond doubt, of the existence of a literal biblical God you are a fool.

If you are certain, beyond doubt, of the non-exsistence of any God, Higher Being, or Creator, then you are a fool.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:07:47 2004  
  The way I think of it is, Either god has always existed, or matter has always existed. Either way something has existed forever, I dont think something was created from nothing. And the thought of anything, a deity, or matter, having always existed, and never having a starting point, is to me a real mind fuck. So I just choose which I want to believe in. And I will admit my beliefs are based on nothing. I can prove not one, or the other. And I would never attempt to do so, because I really dont know.

But before I go to take a shower, I'll say, I worship me, myself, and I.


 

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