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Do you believe
SntSaturn Posted: Sun Jan 18 02:14:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The 'would you go back' thread got me thinking.

Who else here believes in angels? Why or Why not?

mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 02:31:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I believe in angels. Have you ever seen Wings of Desire by Wim Wenders? It's the film City of Angels was based on, dman it's good

Mesh Posted: Sun Jan 18 02:37:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>I believe in angels. Have you ever seen Wings of Desire by Wim Wenders? It's the film City of Angels was based on, dman it's good

Wings of Desire very good movie. So is Far Away So Close, also Wim wenders.

mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 02:40:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  To tel you the truth i think i prefer Farrawy so close! I am a big fan of Otto Zander espeically as Captain Lieutenant Thompsen in Das Boot

libra Posted: Sun Jan 18 03:03:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  don't believe. although it would be fun if there were.

sry_not4sale Posted: Sun Jan 18 03:36:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  wouldnt believing in angels hafta coincide with believing in god, jesus, heaven.... ?

FN Posted: Sun Jan 18 06:45:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Don't believe in anything like that.

Think about it. Watch a door and try to imagine an angel will come walking through and feel ashamed of yourself for even have considered it as a possibility.

mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 07:40:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>wouldnt believing in angels hafta coincide with believing in god, jesus, heaven.... ?

You'd think wouldn't you, but a lot of people have seemed to ahve cut out the trinity part, but that's the part that sanctions my drinking, so i couldn't.

addi Posted: Sun Jan 18 07:43:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>wouldnt believing in angels hafta coincide with believing in god, jesus, heaven.... ?

Good insight. It would be difficult to rationalize their exisistence and not also include the Holy trinity (no, not the character from the matrix)in your belief system.

Like my personal beliefs about God's exisistence, I can't say if they do or don't exist. I will say that the thought of angel relatives on my mother's side looking down at some of my activies is kind of unnerving. If there is a heaven, and I make it there, I'm gonna be grounded for the first millenia.
"NO WINGS FOR YOU!" (Angel Nazi)

DaveHill Posted: Sun Jan 18 07:52:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hmm, i would really love if they existed, but i'm not sure. They do make wonderful metaphors though. I love the concept of angels, but that's about all.

ifihadahif Posted: Sun Jan 18 08:57:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>wouldnt believing in angels hafta coincide with believing in god, jesus, heaven.... ?

Angels were around before Christianity.

And of course they exist. You should see my grand daughter.

dan632 Posted: Sun Jan 18 08:59:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>don't believe. although it would be fun if there were.

hahaha, sorry if u take this the wrong way but i was watching Josie & The Pussycats the other day (rachel leigh cook-yummy!!) and i just read this post and i just thought that libra reminds me of the drummer. i don't mean it as an insult it just seems kinda uncanny

addi Posted: Sun Jan 18 09:55:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Angels were around before Christianity.

A very brief history of angels:

"ANGEL, according to many religions, is a spiritual being created by God. The word angel comes from a Greek word meaning messenger. According to religious tradition, angels live in heaven and act as God's servants and as messengers between God and human beings. They also serve as guardians of individuals and nations. Angels traditionally are pictured as having a human body and wings. Various poets and artists have portrayed angels as symbols of innocence or virtue.

Most religions have teachings about angels or similar beings. In some primitive religions, legends tell of bright, powerful spirits that appear in dreams and visions and protect people or tribes. In Hinduism and Buddhism, many major gods are accompanied by a band or court of spiritual beings.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the religion of the Muslims, have the most elaborate doctrines about angels. These religions recognize an order of beings to which angels rank above human beings but under God. Satan and other angels rebelled against this order and are regarded as "fallen angels."

The concept of angels with a human body and wings began in the Old Testament, the basis of Judaism. According to later religious tradition, there are nine orders of angels. Seraphim rank highest, followed by cherubim, thrones, dominations, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels and angels.

Christian doctrine regarding angels reached full development during the A.D. 1100's and 1200's, especially in the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas believed angels were necessary to fill the gap between God and human beings. He taught that countless numbers of angels existed and that they were immortal. According to Aquinas, angels knew everything except things that depended on human choice and things known only to God. The concept of angels was strongly influenced by Paradise Lost (1667), a famous epic by the English poet John Milton. Paradise Lost includes a version of Satan's fall and of other Bible stories.

The Islamic belief in angels resembles that of Judaism and Christianity. Muslim angels live near God's throne, and some have special duties."

It's interesting to note that our idea of angels is a relatively modern creation. In ancient cultures they were "spiritual beings". It wasn't untill centuries later that artists and writers decided to add wings, white robes, and depict them primarily as female in form. Just made me realize that when demons are described, or given visual form, they're usually male. Hmmmmm...

Malik Posted: Sun Jan 18 10:33:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  *Raises addi's post to the tenth power*

marsi Posted: Sun Jan 18 10:52:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >It's interesting to note that our idea of angels is a relatively modern creation. In ancient cultures they were "spiritual beings". It wasn't untill centuries later that artists and writers decided to add wings, white robes, and depict them primarily as female in form. Just made me realize that when demons are described, or given visual form, they're usually male. Hmmmmm...

So instead of plinkers and plonkers we can say angels and demons ;-)

mat_j Posted: Sun Jan 18 11:24:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'll always see them as existentialist Germans in raincoats sitting on the Victoria statue and wandering through cold war Berlin, pondering life and death.

libra Posted: Sun Jan 18 15:22:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  dan632 said:
>hahaha, sorry if u take this the wrong way but i was watching Josie & The Pussycats the other day (rachel leigh cook-yummy!!) and i just read this post and i just thought that libra reminds me of the drummer. i don't mean it as an insult it just seems kinda uncanny

uh oh

i remind you of tara reid. online?! dammit. I really don't like her. But I haven't seen Josie and the pussycats, so maybe she's really cool in the movie??...i doubt it. She's probably some dumb airheaded blonde....oh no

SntSaturn Posted: Sun Jan 18 15:29:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
>i remind you of tara reid. online?! She's probably some dumb airheaded blonde....oh no


sry_not4sale Posted: Sun Jan 18 16:50:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
The concept of angels was strongly influenced by Paradise Lost (1667), a famous epic by the English poet John Milton. Paradise Lost includes a version of Satan's fall and of other Bible stories.

has anyone read Paradise Lost or know more about it?

mat_j said:
>I'll always see them as existentialist Germans in raincoats sitting on the Victoria statue and wandering through cold war Berlin, pondering life and death.

luv it :D

Kira Posted: Sun Jan 18 17:37:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Think about it. Watch a door and try to imagine an angel will come walking through and feel ashamed of yourself for even have considered it as a possibility.

I've tried this, or something like it. I stood in the woods and tried to imagine something was speaking to me, and it worked. It was strange to be able to 'turn on' a voice (voices) like that. And I was a little embarrassed. ;) Unnerved, too... no more talking dead logs for me. :P

Don't believe in angels.

choke Posted: Sun Jan 18 21:14:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was babysitting an 4yrold once and she was trying to get out of trouble and i mentioned something about voices. She gave me a superior look and said 'Dont listen to those ones, thats just your head.'

Wise words.

sry_not4sale Posted: Sun Jan 18 21:22:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  after a conversation wif a close friend..

i dnt believe in angels cos that wuld warrant believing in god as they'r god's messengers... i like the idea... but i recon the closest u can get r those blessed ppl u meet that jst seem 2 b different..

u guyz no what i mean? have ne of you met ne1 like that?

sweet p Posted: Sun Jan 18 22:28:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well I can't say I fully believe in angels but I dunno...

On two separate occasions, I have seen something crazy in my house...everybody says something different...

ghost, angel, shadow, light reflecting off a mirror, my crazy wild imagination, brain malfunction....

who knows.

Blackstar Posted: Sun Jan 18 23:12:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>has anyone read Paradise Lost or know more about it?

Tried to about 2 months ago. Didnt make it past the first book...

I know that Milton is infamous for 'making up' angels. Essentially, he used Angels not specifically named religious texts.

Several angels refered to in religious text find their way into other authors works though. MY favorite has to be "Israfel" by Poe. A nice little poem about, surprise surprise, Israfel.

excerpt compiled from a few sources (a few of wich may be described as 'shady at best')
Israfel ("Angel of the Last Judgment")
Also called Israfil, he is one of the great angels in Islamic lore, honored as the angel of the Last Judgment or angel of the Resurrection. At the end of the world, he will descend to the earth, stand upon the holy rock in Jerusalem, and blow the awesome trumpet that will awaken the dead from their slumber and summon all who have ever lived to come forth and be judged. A beautiful angel, and the master of music, Israfel sings the praises of God in a thousand different tongues. Israfel is believed to have given assistance and counsel to the profit Muhammad. He is credit along with Gabriel and Michael as the angels sent by God from heaven to gather dirt from across the earth with which Adam was to be made. He thus shared in their failure, as only Azrael was later able to accomplish the task. Perhaps the most touching story is the one of Israfel's compassion. According to it, he looks down into hell six times a day and is so stricken with horror and grief at the plight of the damned souls that he begins to weep. His tears are so numerous and his weeping so intense that God must stop the flow himself, lest the entire world be flooded.

other notable angels include:
azrael - head of the angels of death
Camael - head angel of 'destruction'. co cheif of the angels with gabriel
Gabriel - co-cheif of the angels with Camael
Lucifer - Once the most powerful of all angels, he rebelled against god and was banished
Sariel - angel who decides the fate of those who stray from God's path
Remiel - angel of divine visions

angels are by and large not specifically mentioned in most modern christian services, save at christmas time when there are some references to gabriel and michael, because of a decision made sometime during the middle ages (year escapes me). The church decided to remove many specific references to angels because the people had begun worshippign angels, almost as if they were lesser gods themselves. The church decided it was best to funnel the 'power' of faith and worship to God and let him divide it up as needed. The clergy felt that angels were taking the focus of god.

and as for my beliefs on the existance of angels...dont even ask me any 'faith' related questions right now. I'll probobly just put a gun to your head and tell you to find out for yourself.

SntSaturn Posted: Sun Jan 18 23:41:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  wow - i'm so proud. this thread even made it to the GT poll.

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:10:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>addison said:
>The concept of angels was strongly influenced by Paradise Lost (1667), a famous epic by the English poet John Milton. Paradise Lost includes a version of Satan's fall and of other Bible stories.
>has anyone read Paradise Lost or know more about it?

milton;s paradise lost was a glorification of God's word. it;s like a shakespearean way of the bible.
he was methodist by the way.

actually the concept of angels are already reinforced in the bible and koran.
in fact the koran was acknowledge by Prophet Mohammed as the words and the will of God thru the angel Gabriel.

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:16:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  in Genesis, it was written that the angels of heaven came down to earth and procreated offsprings with the daughters of men. they were then casted out from heaven.

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:16:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Satan, also known as the devil, is mentioned frequently in the Bible. There are many popular ideas about this evil spirit being. Some think that Satan is not real, but is rather a personification of the wickedness that abides in the world. Others admit that the devil exists, but presume that he is now confined in the fiery pits of an ever burning hell. Still others believe that Satan is free and actively promoting sinfulness in our world today. What is the truth? What does the Bible tell us about this evil being?

God's Word clearly teaches the reality of Satan as a personal entity. He is presented as an evil being who affects humanity by his actions. Many details about the devil are available in the Bible, but the facts have to be searched out. In this article we will piece together what the Scriptures have to say about Satan and draw conclusions from the Bible and other available sources.

Although the Bible doesn't tell us explicitly, evidence suggests that the angelic realm was formed sometime during the first three days of creation, before God brought forth the dry land on the earth. This understanding is supported by passages from Nehemiah and Job:

NEHEMIAH 9:6 You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You. (NKJV)

JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NKJV)

The "host of heaven" mentioned in Nehemiah 9:6 is a reference to angels, as are the parallel terms "morning stars" and "sons of God" in Job 38:7. The passage from Job suggests that the angels were present when God "laid the foundations of the earth" (probably a reference to the separation of the dry land from the water on the third day of creation).

Now that we have an idea when the angels were originally formed, let's examine what the Bible reveals about the creation of Satan:

EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . ." (NIV)

Satan is never mentioned by name in this passage. However, there are some clues in Ezekiel 28 that identify the entities being spoken of here. The chapter starts with God's proclamation against the "Prince of Tyre" (v. 2). This prince is proud and says, "I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods" (v. 2). These words mirror what Paul says about the "Man of Sin" (II The. 2:4). Ezekiel 28:1-10 is speaking figuratively of the coming Antichrist.

We see another message beginning in Ezekiel 28:11, this one addressed by God to the "King of Tyre." However, because of the things said about this king, it is clear that God is not speaking to a mere man. This king is the one who will give his authority to the Prince of Tyre at the end of the age (Rev. 13:2). This king is the ancient dragon, Satan.

The first thing to notice from this passage in Ezekiel is that the "king of Tyre" (Satan) was in the Garden of Eden and he was "the seal of perfection." When does the Bible show that the Garden of Eden was created?

GENESIS 2:8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. (NKJV)

Genesis 2:8 seems to indicate that the Garden of Eden was planted by God after He created man. Ezekiel 28:13 reveals that Satan was in Eden before he sinned. Therefore, contrary to traditional understanding, Satan was in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve before he fell.

This anointed guardian cherub was likely one of the two angels who covered the mercy seat with their wings (see Heb. 8:5; 9:5, 23-24; Exo. 25:20; 37:9; I Kings 6:19-28; 8:6-7; I Chr. 28:18; II Chr.3:10-13; 5:7-8). However, because of pride, this cherub's wisdom was corrupted, as I Timothy 3:6 implies.

I TIMOTHY 3:6 Not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (NKJV)

How did pride cause Satan to fall into condemnation? The Bible doesn't tell us directly, but there are enough clues to figure out the answer to this question.

Genesis 1:26-28 shows that God made mankind in His "image":

GENESIS 1:26 Then God ['elohim] said, "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God ['elohim] created man in His own image; in the image of God ['elohim] He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God ['elohim] blessed them, and God ['elohim] said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." (NKJV)

There are several theories about what it means to be made "in the image of God." This passage makes it clear that being made in God's image is what makes mankind (both men and women) different from the rest of the creation.

Mankind is like 'elohim in some way because we are made in the image of 'elohim, but how? Michael S. Heiser, an ancient Hebrew language expert, gives the following explanation in answer to this question:

. . . This points to viewing the image in a FUNCTIONAL sense (i.e., we are created to "image" God) as opposed to a QUALITATIVE sense (as though the image is some quality or ability given to us; i.e., the image is some possessed attribute).

. . . When Scripture speaks of mankind being created in the image of God, what is meant is that mankind has been created to represent God on earth.

. . . God deliberately created mankind to rule the earth, and to accomplish this purpose, he created man as his own image - He made man his co-regent / representative ruler.

The image of God then, refers to our unique status as human beings, rulers in God's stead, according to His own will. We are created AS his image - to function as he would were he administering His own affairs directly. Our abilities - unequally given to us in the providence of God are not THE image, but only a means to carrying out His expressed and often secret end. (pp. 8, 9, 10, 11, "The Image of God in Scripture")

This understanding of "the image of God" is supported by the immediate text, which shows that mankind's duties included having dominion over the earth and every living creature on it. This interpretation is also supported by a related passage of Scripture in Psalm 8:

PSALM 8:4 What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, 7 all sheep and oxen -- even the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea that pass through the paths of the seas. (NKJV)

In addition to showing the position of mankind on the earth, this psalm also alludes to the reason for Satan's ultimate fall. Verse 5 tells us that humanity was made "a little lower than the angels." However, it was men, not angels, who were given rulership over the earth.

As Ezekiel 28:12 tells us, Satan was "the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" when he was created. Yet neither he nor any of the other angels were given dominion over the earth initially. Rather, Adam, a being Satan must have considered inferior to himself, was given this power. It's easy to see why Satan's pride led him to sin.

Ezekiel 28:16 tells us that Satan was filled with violence and sinned through his "widespread trade." The Hebrew word rendered "trade" in Ezekiel 28:16 is rekullatekha; it is a form of the noun rekulla, which means "merchandise" or "traffic." However, rekulla is derived from the root word rakal, which means "to go about." A closely-related derivative, rakil, means "slanderer." In the New Testament, Satan is often called the "devil," or diabolos in Greek. Not coincidentally, the literal meaning of diabolos and its variations is also "slanderer."

The account of Satan in Ezekiel 28 probably involves aspects of both "merchandising" and "slander." The Scriptures imply that Satan, likely through peddling his slander, turned one-third of the angelic host against God (Rev. 12:3-4). It's not hard to imagine that Satan went around to the angels, seeking to build support for his contention that they were far better qualified to run the earth than mankind was. It was through this slanderous "merchandising" that Satan became filled with violence against humanity.

Eventually, Satan developed a plan that he must have felt would deliver to him the position he believed should have rightfully been his in the beginning. He decided to deceive the humans in the Garden into disobeying God's direct command. After having proven mankind unworthy of the rulership position God had placed them in, Satan, in his arrogant pride, must have thought God would see that he should be given authority over the world in their place.

It's in this context that we see Satan approach Eve in the Garden of Eden:

GENESIS 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. (NKJV)

The Bible elsewhere identifies Satan with the serpent in this story. In Revelation 12:9 and 20:2, he is called "that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan." Did he appear to Eve in the form of a talking snake? Probably not.

The Hebrew word translated "serpent" in the above passage is נחש (nachash). In addition to "serpent," this Hebrew root word has three other possible meanings. It can be used as a noun to mean (1) "one who practices divination," or (2) "shining brass." However, nachash can also be used as a verb to mean (3) "to shine" or "to glow."

In Genesis 3, it is possible that nachash is used in the verbal form as a noun. If that is the case, the proper translation of hanachash in Genesis 3 would be "the Shining one." This understanding of nachash fits in very well with Paul's description of Satan appearing as an "angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14).

Notice Satan's tactics with Eve. He didn't lie to her outright, but instead he twisted the truth. He led Eve to doubt God's word.

GENESIS 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. 8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" 10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself." 11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" 12 Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." 13 And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." (NKJV)

Although Satan apparently believed that the downfall of mankind would benefit him, it actually turned out to be his undoing. God was not pleased with his role in man's disobedience, and he was cursed for his deviousness:

GENESIS 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." (NKJV)

Satan's plan to rectify the "mistake" God had made by putting humans in charge of the earth backfired. As well as showing God the flaws of man, Satan revealed his own shortcomings. This resulted in God placing an age-lasting animosity between mankind and Satan. From that point forward, "the Shining one" became "the Adversary" (Heb. haSatan) of humanity. The enmity God placed between man and Satan is alluded to by Paul in the conclusion of his letter to the Romans:

ROMANS 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. (NKJV)

Satan's actions did achieve their desired aim; God cast man out of the Garden of Eden for his sin (Gen. 3:24). In his fallen state, man was condemned to suffer death because of Adam's sin, as Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans:

ROMANS 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned . . . 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (NKJV)

Because Satan enticed mankind to sin and bring death upon themselves, he is called a murderer:

JOHN 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (NASU)

"The beginning" spoken of by Yeshua refers to the beginning of God's plan, when mankind was in the Garden of Eden before the fall (Gen. 2). "The beginning" here is not referring to Satan's creation, because we know God originally made him perfect (Eze. 28:15; Gen. 1:31).

John also speaks of Satan being a sinner from "the beginning":

I JOHN 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. . . . (NASU)

In man's place, Satan became the temporary ruler of the world. The devil's temptation of Yeshua in the wilderness clearly shows this:

LUKE 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." (NKJV)

Satan tempted Yeshua for the same reason he had enticed Eve in the Garden. He knew that Yeshua was in the process of regaining rulership over the world and replacing him. He also knew that if he could get Yeshua to sin (as he had with Adam and Eve), then he could thwart God's plan and remain the ruler of the world. Where Adam and Eve had succumbed to Satan's deception and disqualified mankind from ruling the earth, Yeshua withstood the temptation and triumphed. This victory paved the way for him to eventually reclaim rulership at his second coming.

Just before his crucifixion, Yeshua alluded to Satan's status as the current ruler of the world:

JOHN 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me." (NKJV)

Paul refers to Satan as "the god of this age" in his second letter to the Corinthians:

II CORINTHIANS 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (NKJV)

Mark's Gospel clearly shows us that Satan is the one who is responsible for blinding those who can't see the good news of the Messiah:

MARK 4:14 "The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. (NKJV)

As the "god of this age," Satan rules over the other fallen angels and the demons:

MATTHEW 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; 26 and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?" (RSV)

Here Satan is called "Beelzebul," which literally means "lord of the flies." He is identified as the "prince of demons." We also know from the Scriptures that Satan is the ruler of the fallen angels (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 12:9). For an examination of the difference between fallen angels and demons, refer to my related article.

When demons bring sickness and ailments upon people, we find that Satan is blamed:

LUKE 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, "Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity." 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. . . . 16 "So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound -- think of it -- for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?" (NKJV)

ACTS 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." (NKJV)

Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible clearly shows that Satan has not been restricted to hell after his fall. Indeed, the Old Testament shows that, before the first coming of Yeshua the Messiah, Satan continued to have access to the very throne of God:

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (NKJV)

JOB 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (NKJV)

Satan used his access to the heavenly throne to slander and accuse God's people before YHVH and the divine council, as the story in Job shows. Zechariah also saw Satan in action as the accuser in a vision:

ZECHARIAH 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" (NIV)

When Christ triumphantly returned to heaven after his crucifixion and resurrection (Rev. 12:5), Satan and his angels were cast out and no longer had access to the throne:

REVELATION 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (RSV)

Some have incorrectly believed that this passage refers to Satan's initial fall. Yet the time sequence established in Revelation 12 clearly indicates that this ejection from heaven is after the Messiah returned from the earth and before his second coming at the end of this age.

Yeshua, just before his crucifixion, stated that his triumph on the cross would allow for Satan to be cast out of heaven:

JOHN 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (RSV)

JOHN 16:11 "Concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." (RSV)

Christ told his disciples that when he had gone back into heaven after his resurrection, the Father would send His Spirit to teach them all things and bring them into remembrance of all the things that he had said to them (John 14:26). But in addition, he warned them of the coming of Satan to the earth after his departure.

John records an angel speaking from heaven who gives warning to the earth about Satan:

REVELATION 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." (NKJV)

Satan now roams the earth looking for those whom he can prey upon:

I PETER 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (NIV)

Paul tells us how to avoid becoming the prey of Satan:

EPHESIANS 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; (NKJV)

James also gives believers advice on thwarting the devil's schemes:

JAMES 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. (NKJV)

Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, speaks of those who have been caught by the devil:

II TIMOTHY 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (NKJV)

Now that we've examined Satan's origin and activities, let's look at the final destiny of Satan. What do the Scriptures say will be his ultimate fate? Yeshua briefly mentioned this in his dissertation on the judgment in Matthew 25:

MATTHEW 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (NKJV)

Revelation 19 describes the battle between the forces of the Antichrist and Yeshua at the end of this age. After the defeat and destruction of "the beast" and "the false prophet," the Bible reveals that Satan himself will be captured and imprisoned for a thousand years:

REVELATION 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit [abussou, "Abyss"] and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit [abusson, "Abyss"], and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. (NKJV)

ISAIAH 24:21 So it will happen in that day, that the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, and the kings of the earth on earth. 22 They will be gathered together like prisoners in the dungeon, and will be confined in prison; and after many days they will be punished. (NASU)

REVELATION 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (RSV)

Satan's final rebellion against God will be thwarted, and God will finally deal with the devil. The tenth verse of Revelation 20 describes how God handles Satan. Just what does this verse tell us about the fate of the Adversary?

The first part of the answer lies in the Greek word basanisthesontai, translated "tormented" here. Understanding the true meaning of basanisthesontai, which comes from the verb basanizo and the noun basanos, is one of the major keys to accurately interpreting Revelation 20:10.

According to Friberg, basanisthesontai means "strictly, rub upon the touchstone (basanos), a Lydian stone used to test the genuineness of metals; hence, test or make proof of anything . . ."

The history found in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament of how the meaning of these words evolved over time is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

. . . The βάσανος [basanos] originally belongs to the calling of the inspector of coins. It is linked with the Heb. root בחן ("to test") . . . βάσανος is generally accepted to be a loan word . . . The testing of gold and silver as media of exchange by the proving stone, was first developed by the Babylonians, then came to the Aramaeans and Hebrews by way of Lydia . . . and from them to the Gks. In non-biblical Gk. βάσανος is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of βάσανος, βασανίζειν [basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur. sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .

The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. βάσανος now comes to denote "torture" or "the rack," espec. used with slaves . . . βάσανος occurs in the sense of "torment" . . .

The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment. If we put men instead of metal or a coin, the stone of testing become[s] torture or the rack. The metal which has survived the testing stone is subjected to harsher treatment. Man is in the same position when severely tested by torture. In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torture remained (pp. 561, 562, vol. I, emphasis mine).

The meaning of Revelation 20:10 is that Satan (and implicitly, all those who haven't submitted to God by the end of the Millennium) will be cast into the lake of fire. There Satan and the wicked will be punished for their rebellion. In addition to punishing, the lake of fire will also test, prove, and refine those in it. However, this process is not "eternal" as we understand the concept.

To verify this, let's look closely at the final phrase "forever and ever." Friberg says that this phrase, translated from the Greek eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means "into the ages of the ages." The Greek nouns aionas and aionon are plural forms of the Greek aion, which simply means an "eon" or "age." This word refers to an indefinite period of time; however, it does not convey the idea of eternity.

This Greek phrase is used numerous times in the Scriptures (see Gal. 1:5; Phi. 4:20; I Tim. 1:17; II Tim. 4:18; Heb. 13:21; I Pet. 4:11; Rev. 1:6, 18; 4:9, 10; 5:13, 14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; 19:3; 22:5). Most people assume that this phrase means "eternity"; however, some scholars realize that this connotation was not present in the original Koine ("common") Greek of the New Testament. In his work on the original meanings of aion and aionios, Louis Abbott writes:

The Greek phrase eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons," occurs about twenty times in the Greek New Testament in this combination. The ASV margin and some other versions, lexicons, dictionaries, and commentaries translate the phrase correctly.

Windet, in De Vita Functora Statu, of 1633 says (p. 170), "eis tous aionas ton aionon, of the New Testament meant a finite period."

At 1 Cor. 15:25, where the Greek text shows, dei gar auton basileuein achri hou the pantas tous echthrous hupo tous podas autou, "For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." This clearly states that Christ's reigning is limited. There is no Scripture to contradict the statement when aion and aionios are correctly translated.

Dr. William Barclay concurs in his commentary (p. 166-169) on The Letters to the Corinthians. If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, "forever and ever," we have a contradiction in Scripture, for Rev. 11:15 says, in the same version: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." That contradicts 1 Cor. 15:25, which says: "He must be reigning till . . ." If Rev. 11:15 is translated "eons of the eons," or "ages of the ages," there is no contradiction. The ASV says (1 Cor. 15:24-25), "Then cometh the end, when He shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; When He shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet;" consequently, the reigning of Christ Jesus and the saints (Rev. 22:5) will be "for the eons of the eons" or "for the ages of the ages." (ch. 5, An Analytical Study of Words)

A correct understanding of "into the ages of the ages" shows that Satan, as well as those who worship the "beast" (Rev. 14:11) will be refined in the lake of fire for an indeterminate, probably lengthy, but still finite, amount of time. The use of the phrase "day and night" in Revelation 20:10 also bears this out, since time as we understand it does not exist in eternity.

One final point regarding Satan needs to be addressed. Some believe that God created Satan to be evil and to fulfill a specific purpose here on the earth as the adversary and tempter of mankind. Those who teach this doctrine primarily cite three Scriptures in support of their position: John 8:44, I John 3:8 and Isaiah 45:7. We've already looked at John 8:44 and I John 3:8, so let's now examine Isaiah 45:7:

ISAIAH 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [ra']: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

On the surface, this verse appears to give a scriptural basis for the belief that God created Satan with an inherently evil nature. However, when we research this passage, a different picture emerges.

The KJV does imply that God was the creator of evil. However, this same version also renders the Hebrew word ra' (translated "evil" in this passage) as "adversity" and "affliction" elsewhere.

If we look at this verse more closely, we can see what YHVH is saying through Isaiah. God is obviously differentiating between two opposites with the first pair of things He mentions ("light" and "dark"). To stay consistent, the second pair of things God lists ("peace," shalom in Hebrew, and "evil") must also be opposites. Yet we know the opposite of evil is good. However, "adversity," another valid translation of ra', is the opposite of shalom, which can mean "prosperity," "safety," and "contentment" in addition to "peace."

Many modern versions translate this phrase more accurately than the KJV, as the following examples show: "I make peace and create calamity" - NKJV; "I make weal and create woe" - RSV; "I make good fortune and create calamity" - Jerusalem Bible; "author alike of prosperity and trouble" - NEB. When translated properly, this verse cannot be used to "prove" that God created Satan to be the evil enemy of mankind.

Yes, Satan did sin from the beginning (John 8:44; I John 3:8). But these verses, when correctly understood, do not substantiate the belief that God created Satan evil. This doctrine contradicts the Scripture, which shows that all of God's creation was perfect at first:

GENESIS 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (NKJV)


The Bible gives quite a bit of information about Satan. To understand the truth, all the information has to be pieced together. Satan is currently the "god" of this world; he is the highest ranking evil spirit being. The devil has authority over the fallen angels and the demons. In the end, Christ will return and subjugate all who won't submit to God's authority, including Satan and his angels. Their punishment will be age-lasting destruction and refinement within the lake of fire.

Bryan T. Huie
July 12, 1997

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:18:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  




iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:31:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God [angels] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. . . .There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men [had sexual relations with them], that they bare CHILDREN to them, the same became MIGHTY MEN which were of old, men of renown" (Gen.6:1-4).

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:33:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Angel Beliefs.

Have you ever wondered what an Angel is? I mean beyond what we see on display as the images of Angels. Have you ever asked yourself if Angels have always existed, and if so what do they do specifically. Well besides the teachings that we obtain through our religious practices, exactly what are the answers to these questions and are there answers? What exactly is an "Angel".

According to most dictionaries an "Angel" is defind as a form of spirit. They include in their definitions terms such as: immortal, guardian, guiding, attendent, messenger, and harbinger. They usually provide a discription of how we envisioin them as being in human form with wings and dressed in a long white robe. They also generally give some form of a discription of a living being who is either very beautiful or kind and who displays those behaviors we would attribute to Angels (kindness, gentleness, selflessness, etc.). So the vision that we could obtain from their definition is of a human form of a spirit which is beautiful, dressed in a long white robe.

The word "Angel" comes from the greek work "angelos", which through Hebrew translation means "messenger." Therefore, they are generally envisioned as a messenger or intermediary between mortals and the Divine. The term "Angel" is use specifically in the Western religions to distinguish benevolent spirits from malevolent spirits (also called demons). It is applied to a form of spiritual being who mediates between the realm of the Divine (God or the gods) and the world of mortals. This description of "Angels" refers to their function rather than to their being or nature. They are frequently pictured as ministering to men in art. John Calvin, in his book Institutes of the Christian Religion, said: "Angels are the dispensers and administrators of the divine beneficence toward us. They regard our safety, undertake our defence, direct our ways, and exercise a constant solicitude that no evil befall us."

The Christian belief and many other religions, place the creation of Angels before mans, although there is no exact way of determining the time of their creation. The belief in Angels is generally found in some form in all religions and it is believed that this belief finds some basis in the concern of man with the relationship between mortals and the spiritual realm. It is found in many of the ancient religions (Greek, Egyptian, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) that this relationship was believed to have involved Angels. These religions envisioned Angels as divine messengers sent to interact with mortals by instructing, informing, or commanding them. It is further believed by many of the ancient religions, that Angels could function as a protective guardian, a heavenly warrior, and sometimes even as a cosmic power. Futhermore, the distinction between a good Angel and a bad Angel (somtimes referred to as a demon is not always clear. Therefore, through these beliefs, Angels can be described as personified powers mediating between the Divine and mortals.

The role of the Angel is elaborated more fully in the religions based on revelation, such as the Zoroastrainism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Where these religions emphasize the distance between mortals and the divine, they have the greatest need for an intermediary between the two. While in the polytheistic and monistic religions the gap between the two is less pronounced. There does exist a spiritual being similar to Angels, which exists to help individuals achieve a proper rapport with the gods and spirits. In the Hebrew scriptures, as in the Zoroastrainism, Angels praise and serve the Divine. They reveal the Divine truth, and act as extensions of the Divine's will, rewarding the good and punishing the wicked. They help mortals understand the Divine and they conduct the souls of the righteous to heaven. The Christian religion, like the Hebrew, sees Angels as the messengers and ministeries between mortals and the Divine. They see the Angels as being activily involved in the daily lives of Christians. They are seen as presiding over the sacraments and are therefore present at the most significant moments in a Christian's life. They will announce the Last Judgement and separate the just from the unjust. Angels help Christinas achieve salvation in countless ways, no service is beneath them. They carry the prayers to the Divine, they offer strength, and comfort to the faithful.

It is further believed by many religions that the Divine appointed a Guardian Angel for every man. They are envisioned as intelligent spiritual creatures divinely appointed to exercise individual care and protection over mortals. With a primary function of assisting mortals with their attainment of eternal salvation. Most take the concept of the Guardian Angel to mean a single Angle, and yet there are those (such as the Jewish Qunran) who believe that every mortal has at his side two Angels. This belief sees their function to include the recording of good deeds by one and the recording of bad deeds by the other. There are, however, some who are influential in Angelology, that never mention a personal Guardian Angel. Yet in the Middle Ages this belief prevailed heavily.

Through these beliefs of the functions of Angels, it is easy to understand the belief that prevails concerning the power and intelligence of an Angel. Angels have benn attributed with being more powerful than any known power to man and it has been said that they are more organized than any of the great armies throughout history. Yet no religion defines them as being "omnipotent" or "all powerful." Angels are also accredited with an extensive realm of knowledge, which they use for the good of mortals. Yet no where is it found that they are "omniscient" or "all knowing." There numerous testimonials given that enforce the beliefs of the power and the knowledge of Angels. These testimonials are found in the scriptures and in society as we know it today. Another belief that is held, is that angels are not "omnipresent," they are not accredited with the ability to be in more than one place at any given time. While they are believed to have the ability to move about freely without restraint, and are envisioned as being capable of moving from one place to another rapidly. They are only able to be in one place. These beliefs are held by most religions, with the belief that Angels are created beings or creatures and that they serve their creator.

Although it is agreed that Angels are spiritual beings, opinions vary greatly as to whether they bodies they assumed are material or simply gave the illusion of being so. During the pre-Christian Judaism, there existed the convection that Angels were spiritual beings without bodies. That as such they were only visible to man as apparitions and did not appear in material bodies. They were said not to have a body of flesh, which did not mean that they had no body of any kind. This was not to say that they were totally without form, but rather that they had an immaterial body corresponding to their nature. During this period their bodies wer considered to be in some form vaporous or firelike. The concept of Angels existing in a vaporous form was quickly replaced with the concept that an Angel existed in an ethereal body that was proper for it. In any case, so it was said, an Angel never showed himself in a body of flesh, nor in his true form, but in a special form suited to the apparition. While all religions see Angels as spirits, the beliefs of their appearance later changed to state that an Angel does have the power to assume the form of human bodies in order to make their presence visible to the senses of man.

While all beliefs of the Angels and their functions center on the concept of Angels being spiritual messengers from the Divine. Sent to carry out the duties of the Divine, their functions are not totally seen as that of ministering spirits, sent for the service of those who shall inhert salvation. The Angels are subject to the divine, and their primary role is to minister to the Divine and the Divine Kingdom. They also serve the Divine by offering praise and honoring the Divine. Through this offering of praise may be found the basis for the beliefs of Angel voices. While there are mentions in the Christian scriptures of Angels speaking to mortals as they carry out their duties for the Divine. The image of sweetnes, joyfulness, and happiness of Angel voices may also find basis in the belief that music is the ultimate vehicle of praise. Throughout history, there have been poems, songs, and stories written about the wonders of Angel voices. Along with this, there have been testimonies upon testimonies given by mortals who have proclaimed to have heard Angel voices during near death experiences and during death.

Throughout our lives we hear of the Angels and a large part of our beliefs are founded on those of our religious teachings, not matter what the religion. But the personal belief in Angels is always one of personal faith. With all the knowledge availabe to the scientific world today, one must be aware that science can never prove or disprove the existence or activity of Angels. One only knows that Angels exist, through faith.

iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 00:35:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  from a muslim point of view


1. Angels are the honoured slaves of Allaah Ta’ala.

2. They are free from disobeying Allaah Ta'ala. Whatever they are ordered to do they comply.

3. They are honoured with the duties of conveying Allaah Ta'ala's Message, propagation and of being His ambassadors.

4. The Kitaabs and Scriptures of the Nabis was revealed through them.

5. They convey with extreme carefulness, faithfulness and prudence. They are free from making mistakes and errors. The angels convey exactly as Allaah Ta'ala had instructed them. There can be absolutely no mistake or misunderstanding in their conveying the Message.

6. They are free from eating, drinking, male and female gender, giving birth and lineage.

7. They are created from light and can assume any form.

8. They are too numerous in number. Only Allaah Ta'ala knows their exact quantity.

9. They are constantly in the Ibaadat of Allaah Ta’ala in different forms and are never weary of Ibaadat.

10. They are constantly engaged in the duty assigned to them by Allaah Ta 'ala.

Angels are deputed throughout the length and breadth of the heavens and the earth. They are controlled and supervised by Allaah Ta' ala. Some are deputed with carrying the Arsh (Divine Throne) of Allaah Ta'ala, some are lined along the Arsh, some are making Tawaaf (circumambulating) the Arsh, some are deputed with caring for Jannat and others with Jahannum. Some are angels of mercy and others are of punishment and retribution. Some are in charge with removing the souls and others are deputed with looking after humans. Some are in charge of recording the deeds of humans and others of saving them from shaitaans and other harmful creatures. Some are deputed with asking the questions in the grave. In brief, the angels are deputed with various duties and tasks regarding this world and the Hereafter. The existence of angels is proven in the Qur'aan Shareef and the Ahaadith, in fact it is recorded in all the Kitaabs and Scriptures of the previous Nabis. To accept the existence of angels is a necessity of our Deen and to refute their existence is undoubtedly kufr.

The atheists deny the existence of angels. Their only proof of non-existence of the angles is that they cannot be seen and that their existence has not been established. This claim of theirs is indeed nonsensical and not even worth replying, because the non-visibility of a thing and one not having proof of a thing is certainly no proof for any rational mind that the thing does not exist.

From amongst all the angels there are four that are very close to Allaah Ta'ala and they hold special status. They are:

1. Jibraeel (alaihi salaam) - He was responsible for bringing the Wahi (Divine Revelation) to the Nabis.

2. Mikaaeel (alaihi salaam) - He is responsible for the sustenance of the creation.

3. Israfeel (alaihi salaam) - He is responsible for blowing the Trumpet on the Day of Qiyaamah.

4. Izraeel (alaihi salaam) - He is responsible for removing the souls.

According to most authorities of Deen, Hadhrat Jibraeel (alaihi salaam) holds the highest rank amongst the angels. This is also borne our froi some Ahaadith. Some Ulama say that these four angels are equal in rank.

NOTE: There is a difference of opinion regarding the reality of angel; According to the Ahle-Islaam, angels are created from light (Noor) an they have the ability to carry our actions. They are also able to assure any form or shape. According to the Hukamaa (medical men), angel is the name of jewels that are free from matter.

socialyD Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:09:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Do not limit yourselves to seeing angels in terms of heaven and hell.

Angels are where you see them.

choke Posted: Tue Jan 20 03:30:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>after a conversation wif a close friend..
>i dnt believe in angels cos that wuld warrant believing in god as they'r god's messengers... i like the idea... but i recon the closest u can get r those blessed ppl u meet that jst seem 2 b different..
>u guyz no what i mean? have ne of you met ne1 like that?
Blessed people.. Who have they been blessed by?


sry_not4sale Posted: Tue Jan 20 03:56:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  choke said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>after a conversation wif a close friend..
>>i dnt believe in angels cos that wuld warrant believing in god as they'r god's messengers... i like the idea... but i recon the closest u can get r those blessed ppl u meet that jst seem 2 b different..
>>u guyz no what i mean? have ne of you met ne1 like that?
>Blessed people.. Who have they been blessed by?

blessed by society and the people around them - who else?

choke Posted: Tue Jan 20 04:00:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>blessed by society and the people around them - who else?

Now theres a refreshing change.. Agreed.


antartica Posted: Wed Jan 21 06:34:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sry_not4sale said:
>blessed by society and the people around them - who else?

and again:

society often forgives the criminal but never the dreamer - oscar wilde

nah... dun trust society.
trust yourself...

choke Posted: Thu Jan 22 17:21:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  antartica said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>blessed by society and the people around them - who else?
>and again:
>society often forgives the criminal but never the dreamer - oscar wilde
>nah... dun trust society.
>trust yourself...
Ohh no.... i agree entirely.. dont ever trust them :S Just let them build you up a little :D

son-perdition Posted: Mon Apr 16 20:39:54 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  satan is an angel who also set up the


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