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What do you think 2
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:05:45 2004  
  I have read my previous posts, and I'm sorry about those. I figured everyone had read my apology. Go back and look at it.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:07:59 2004  
  PS: It's back in "What do you think"


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:09:28 2004  
  We'll continue here I guess


What do you think?
trogdor57 said:
>I'm not trying to be completely logical here. In my opinion, He's just always been there, nothing created him, and my thinking stops there, because after that, it starts to hurt. It's a little... groundless yes, but it's what I believe. And, I'll say this once again, I don't blame him for everything, some things yes, because they are blessings. However, not the bad, because he isn't vengeful, like he used to be. He doesn't do anything bad. It's like I said before, it's the fault of the bad people of the world, because of freedom of choice.

Yes, My freedom of choice has created quite a few hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, tsunami's, bad harvests, meteor impacts, and so on.

Once again, you don't comprehend something so it must be 'god'.

How can you say 'he' isn't vengeful when your first post was about 'him' sending you to hell if you didn't live by 'his' views of right and wrong?

I'd wish you'd read your own post just for yourself and think about it in an objective manner and just think about it fo a while.

If nothing created 'him' why would it be so farfetched to assume nothing created the universe?

And again, how do you know that nothing has created him while you do know that he has created the universe withou anything to back it up?



 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:10:24 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>PS: It's back in "What do you think"

LOL, I had no idea that threads had a post limit.


The way I think of it is, Either god has always existed, or matter has always existed. Either way something has existed forever, I dont think something was created from nothing. And the thought of anything, a deity, or matter, having always existed, and never having a starting point, is to me a real mind fuck. So I just choose which I want to believe in. And I will admit my beliefs are based on nothing. I can prove not one, or the other. And I would never attempt to do so, because I really dont know.

But before I go to take a shower, I'll say, I worship me, myself, and I.


Ok, now off to a shower.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:13:15 2004  
  If it is logic that you want it is more logical that you'd just skip the creating step and assume that it is matter that has always existed.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:16:08 2004  
  Alright, to be real honest, about half of what I've spouted in the last week and a half have been mostly crap. To be honest, I DON'T KNOW!!! There, I declare my miniscule intillect. (?) But I don't need proof or all these questions, cuz I've got faith, and if that's not good enough, too bad. But it's what I believe in. I could have probably sat here another hour while before you had caught on, or maybe you already had, and you've just been playing, but anyway....

Gah, had to let that out... sorry...

As for origins, that's something I'm not gonna worry about. I feel there is a god, not by studying history, but by what I've seen him doing. And that's that. We can discus it more, I guess, but this is all I've got as far as that goes, but if you give me approx. three days, I can ask my source and see what he says.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:17:44 2004  
  LOL ^_^

Couldn't have said it better, meshuggah


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:19:25 2004  
  You cannot apply logic to matters of faith.
And it is the heighth of arrogance to ridicule someone because they have faith. If you don't have it, then you cannot possibly understand it. And it is foolish to ridicule what you do not understand.
Also, to ridicule someone because of their faith, is to ridicule most of the great men and women of history.



 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:22:08 2004  
  Lol.


Don't you think you're at an age where you should start to figure things out by yourself instead of asking people who can't possibly see and explain things from an objective point of view?

I know you don't have a clue, and I know that for now you still have your faith, because of whatever the reason might be.

Just keep in mind that miracles don't exist. If they would the world wouldn't be like it is right now since miracles would be able to happen becuse of that all powerful god which doesn't want anything bad to happen anyway. And if he can't fix the bad stuf I wonder how powerfull 'he' is.



Whatever you believe man, it doesn't matter to me at all, but for your own sake, think about stuff like this for yourself and don't go asking people whose answer you already know right now.



I consider myself to have won this round by the way.

You were a relativly worthy opponent.



Yay for me.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:23:53 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>You cannot apply logic to matters of faith.
>And it is the heighth of arrogance to ridicule someone because they have faith. If you don't have it, then you cannot possibly understand it. And it is foolish to ridicule what you do not understand.
>Also, to ridicule someone because of their faith, is to ridicule most of the great men and women of history.
>

You were the one talking about logic, hif.

You see critisism as a form of ridicule? I wonder where I have seen that before.

And what does it matter that most of the great men and women in history 'believed'.

Nothing.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:24:14 2004  
  Wow, never realized we were in debate class, but since you do seem to be the victor at the moment:

"Well Played..." *golf clap*


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:32:03 2004  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>You cannot apply logic to matters of faith.
>>And it is the heighth of arrogance to ridicule someone because they have faith. If you don't have it, then you cannot possibly understand it. And it is foolish to ridicule what you do not understand.
>>Also, to ridicule someone because of their faith, is to ridicule most of the great men and women of history.
>>
>
>You were the one talking about logic, hif.

Yes, I was talking about logic and that is what I believe in. I was merely commenting on you trying to apply logic to trogdor's faith.

>You see critisism as a form of ridicule? I wonder where I have seen that before.

Yes, the tone of your criticism was that of ridicule.

>And what does it matter that most of the great men and women in history 'believed'.

Now that depends on what you aspire to, does it not ?


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:33:03 2004  
  trogdor57 said:

>
>"Well Played..." *golf clap*

Good sportsmanship, Trog! *clap clap*




 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:34:08 2004  
  Damn, I was pretty sure I was the victor here !



 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:36:19 2004  
  addison said:
>trogdor57 said:
>
>>
>>"Well Played..." *golf clap*
>
>Good sportsmanship, Trog! *clap clap*
>
>

Agreed.


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:36:59 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Damn, I was pretty sure I was the victor here !
>

You were untill that double bogey on the 16th post. lol
I think Christophe, Trog, and God are in a sudden death overtime match


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:39:20 2004  
  Addison, you so crazy!



 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:41:02 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Damn, I was pretty sure I was the victor here !
>

There is no shame in getting beaten by the best.


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:44:22 2004  
  Trogdor, you remind me SOOO much of someone I know...its really creepy...

I've had the same discussions with him as you and Christophe have had...and we never get anywhere, we simply cannot understand eachother's point of view...


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:45:48 2004  
  That's kinda the feeling a got after a while, that's why there's that short outburst, back a few posts.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:49:52 2004  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Damn, I was pretty sure I was the victor here !
>>
>
>There is no shame in getting beaten by the best.

I wouldn't know, since I've never been bested.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:56:20 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>Damn, I was pretty sure I was the victor here !
>>>
>>
>>There is no shame in getting beaten by the best.
>
>I wouldn't know, since I've never been bested.

You have your believes, I have mine.


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:58:36 2004  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>
>
>You have your believes, I have mine.

You think you're so funny. :P


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 16:59:43 2004  
  Sailovzi said:
>Christophe said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>
>>
>>You have your believes, I have mine.
>
>You think you're so funny. :P

Lol

Damn, they're on to me ;o)


 
socialyD Posted: Mon Jan 19 17:16:20 2004  
  In response to Chistophe:

> Once again, you don't comprehend something so it must be 'god'.

Why not Christophe? Why couldn't there be a higher being out there with a master plan?

> How can you say 'he' isn't vengeful when your first post was about 'him' sending you to hell if you didn't live by 'his' views of right and wrong?

Understand his statment in context. There is no vengence in going to hell. The Bible makes it very clear that we are created as beings of free will. Going to hell is our choice. That one can choose to follow the path of rightousness, or one can follow the path of wickedness. It is made very clear that God would have no man go astray and that all be welcomed into the Kingdom of God, but we make the choice. The heaven and hell thing is a lot like reality in that there are consequences for our actions.

>If nothing created 'him' why would it be so farfetched to assume nothing created the universe?

This is the question of where does your faith lie. You are so eager to mock faith in a heavenly being as always been there. But you are willing to believe that matter has always just exisited, there is no proof for either belief. So each belief requires faith.

>Just keep in mind that miracles don't exist.

Miracles do exsits. Talk to Oncologist, Cardiolgoist, trauma surgeons, parmedics etc... They all have stories of people who shouldn't have made it but they did.

> all powerful god which doesn't want anything bad to happen anyway. And if he can't fix the bad stuf I wonder how powerfull 'he' is

Just because one doesn't want something bad to happen doesn't mean that it doesn't anyway. It goes back to free will. He can fix the bad stuff, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's that tought love thing.


I think that maybe you need to examine your tactics of criticisim. You mock a person belief in faith and belittle a belief in God. You may not believe in religion but the questions posed here are all very valid ones. Many of which we have no definte answers to. Everyone will always have their own opinions for these answers. But the willing to be open minded shows it self in the respect of another belief.

Some wise words:

"I beleive that it is better to believe strongly in something, even if it is worng, than to believe in nothing at all.


 
sweet p Posted: Mon Jan 19 17:18:58 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Alright, to be real honest, about half of what I've spouted in the last week and a half have been mostly crap. To be honest, I DON'T KNOW!!! There, I declare my miniscule intillect. (?) But I don't need proof or all these questions, cuz I've got faith, and if that's not good enough, too bad. But it's what I believe in. I could have probably sat here another hour while before you had caught on, or maybe you already had, and you've just been playing, but anyway....
>
>Gah, had to let that out... sorry...
>
>As for origins, that's something I'm not gonna worry about. I feel there is a god, not by studying history, but by what I've seen him doing. And that's that. We can discus it more, I guess, but this is all I've got as far as that goes, but if you give me approx. three days, I can ask my source and see what he says.


Well I really respect your honesty.
Especially when it comes to this type of discussion, few people [those either fully for or fully against the argument] will admit that they don't know enough to have the final say. I think that whatever you believe is up to you, but at least knowing that you don't have concrete proof puts you in a position that I can at least understand.

I have yet to find a person who can convince me that they KNOW for certain [proof and all] that god either exists or does not. Either stance is unfathomable to me. There are arguments AND rebutles for both sides and it always goes in cirlces.

I think just like you can feel there is a god, you can feel that there is not. Knowing. That's what we're looking for.




 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 18:39:40 2004  
  Thanks to both socialyD and sweet P for their input. To you, socialyD, you have saved my argument and my arse.(not meant to sound british, but a psuedo-cuss) And sweet P, thank you for understanding that it doesn't matter if I have all the facts.


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 18:43:11 2004  
  socialyD said:
>In response to Chistophe:
>
>> Once again, you don't comprehend something so it must be 'god'.
>
>Why not Christophe? Why couldn't there be a higher being out there with a master plan?

Why not but why not the opposite?

>
>> How can you say 'he' isn't vengeful when your first post was about 'him' sending you to hell if you didn't live by 'his' views of right and wrong?
>
>Understand his statment in context. There is no vengence in going to hell. The Bible makes it very clear that we are created as beings of free will. Going to hell is our choice. That one can choose to follow the path of rightousness, or one can follow the path of wickedness. It is made very clear that God would have no man go astray and that all be welcomed into the Kingdom of God, but we make the choice. The heaven and hell thing is a lot like reality in that there are consequences for our actions.

Isn't it 'god' who decides in the end? If he wasn't vengeful there would be no need or hell.

And explain to me then why some people would be 'saved' by 'miracles' and others not. And no 'he moves in mysterious ays' crap please, that's just saying I don't know but I'm right.

>
>>If nothing created 'him' why would it be so farfetched to assume nothing created the universe?
>
>This is the question of where does your faith lie. You are so eager to mock faith in a heavenly being as always been there. But you are willing to believe that matter has always just exisited, there is no proof for either belief. So each belief requires faith.

I never said that. What I said is if you believe that there is a creator because something's existance implies it was created by something else, it is completly paradoxal to say the creator has always existed but matter has not. There is no reason to assume that there was a creator above the fact that we witness every day, the existence of matter.

>
>>Just keep in mind that miracles don't exist.
>
>Miracles do exsits. Talk to Oncologist, Cardiolgoist, trauma surgeons, parmedics etc... They all have stories of people who shouldn't have made it but they did.

So what? Ever heard of chance? Some ppl just can take more than other ones or are just lucky sometimes.

If you believe the above you have to believe that "he" voluntary doesn't save others as well since it is within his power anyway but he doesn't, so what does that tell you?

>
>> all powerful god which doesn't want anything bad to happen anyway. And if he can't fix the bad stuf I wonder how powerfull 'he' is
>
>Just because one doesn't want something bad to happen doesn't mean that it doesn't anyway. It goes back to free will. He can fix the bad stuff, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's that tought love thing.

Isn't god 'all powerful' and if not, why would 'he' be in charge then if his power is so limited that it is of no relevance to us anyway?

And what if it does kill you?
Would you like to have AIDS so you would be stronger? Do you think having a limb amputated or something makes you stronger? Or losing somebody you love? And what about handicapped people in general?

In the end you die anyway. If he fixes 1 bad thing why not the other ones as well if he can do so as you seem to think since you believe in miracles.

So are all the 'saved' people good people and all those who suffer and or die the bad ones?

>
>
>I think that maybe you need to examine your tactics of criticisim. You mock a person belief in faith and belittle a belief in God. You may not believe in religion but the questions posed here are all very valid ones. Many of which we have no definte answers to. Everyone will always have their own opinions for these answers. But the willing to be open minded shows it self in the respect of another belief.

I can't say I really respect people's religious views.

I don't care but indifference is something else than respect. I think this goes both ways if you're honest.

To me 'faith' is a sign of ignorance and perhaps even some sort of stupidity and lack of strenght to face the world on your own (just my opinion)

>
>Some wise words:
>
>"I beleive that it is better to believe strongly in something, even if it is worng, than to believe in nothing at all.

You can say a lot with quotes but it is not right because of the fact that it is a quote.

That is simply a stupid thing to say.

Period.

Nazis believed they were right as well, so to you it is better that they believed in that than in nothing at all?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 18:48:32 2004  
  I'm not sure "stupid" is the word you're looking for. I mean, it's not really pathetic to believe in a higher power. I wonder if maybe you just have some kind of problem with authority. That's just my own observation. Am I even close?


 
FN Posted: Mon Jan 19 18:52:12 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>I'm not sure "stupid" is the word you're looking for. I mean, it's not really pathetic to believe in a higher power. I wonder if maybe you just have some kind of problem with authority. That's just my own observation. Am I even close?

Yes you are right, bad choice of words. I'll take it back and just replace it with something you see fitting, I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say.

In some people I do find it pathetic though.


And I don't have any problem with authority as long as I have it ;o)

No, seriously, I can handle authority as long as there's a reason and explanation behind it and I see it as acceptable, whatever the opinion of everybody else might be.

I'm not emotionally disturbed if that's what you're wondering about :o)


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Jan 19 19:24:01 2004  
  So, what do you consider acceptable?

We can compare and contrast.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 19:34:11 2004  
  i don't think that faith is a stupid thing.

some people have faith in different things.

christophe believes in what he says and views. that is faith in your own.

trog has faith in a higher power. that is faith in God.

addi... well he has his sheep.

an interesting conversation i had with a monk before...
i questioned him about faith and why he holds on so strongly to his beliefs...
he told me something like this,
"the human eye does not see everything most of the time. sometimes they can't even see the reality before them. that's where faith comes in. faith sees the reality that the human eye cannot see."

something i learnt while serving time. faith is important. u can take away a man's freedom. u can take away everything from him. but u can never take his faith away from him. when that happens the human spirit will break.
faith does not equate religion. sometimes it just means the things that u believe in.


*i know that christophe's gonna refute the above statement haha*


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 19:47:02 2004  
  Addison in the last thread you asked why i choose to be an atheist and how i defend my belief. Didnt have a chance to reply till now - part of the working class you see :(

OK. It's not really a choice thing for me, because if i had the choice i would become part of a religion because like i said, that'd be super to have someone looking out for me - no major strings attached :D But life for me is not like that. I have no trust for anything on this earth, why should i trust anything outside it?

I dont want to consider the possibility of a god because quite simply, i dont have the time. Im not going to waste my energy on a fake, and im not going to look for support where there is none.

I guess i am in the same position as Trogdor, just the opposite side of the fence.. But im not going to be an in between with a finger in both pies. Thats like.. rooting for the winning team.

Why should i take comfort in a god that has caused me only pain? Last ramble: Im ok with religion, i have respect for religious people - in fact im jealous of them :P But i could never say i was christian or part of any other religion without fully beleiving in their gods, -and that is something i will never be able to honestly do. In the act of joining the religion i would be committing a sin already.


 
socialyD Posted: Mon Jan 19 19:48:12 2004  
  Christophe said:

>Why not but why not the opposite?

Seems we've reached a dead lock. I admit there is the possiblity of the opposite, you however will admit nothing that decends from faith.

>Isn't it 'god' who decides in the end?

No if you study scripture and understand the christain faith you understand that it is free will, you decide your fate. You need to read it for yourself, it is difficult to explain in a post.

>And explain to me then why some people would be 'saved' by 'miracles' and others not. And no 'he moves in mysterious ays' crap please, that's just saying I don't know but I'm right.

Everything has a purpose and timing when you're done, you're done. If a miracle happens it isn't your time. God may not decide whether you end up in heaeven or hell but he does decide when you get go.

>I never said that. What I said is if you believe that there is a creator because something's existance implies it was created by something else, it is completly paradoxal to say the creator has always existed but matter has not. There is no reason to assume that there was a creator above the fact that we witness every day, the existence of matter.

I am sorry I have only just steped into this post and didn't do some back reading. I infered that response from some of your posts.

>So what? Ever heard of chance? Some ppl just can take more than other ones or are just lucky sometimes.

Again talk to an Onocolgist, Cardiologist, trauma surgeon, parmedic etc... They'll all tell you this is not chance. They're are almost always simlarities in stories and 'healing' are 100% the chances of that happening statisticly are 1 in a hundred million

>If you believe the above you have to believe that "he" voluntary doesn't save others as well since it is within his power anyway but he doesn't, so what does that tell you?


It tells me that life ends for some while it goes on for others. He has a purpose and a plan for that life.


>And what if it does kill you?
>Would you like to have AIDS so you would be stronger? Do you think having a limb amputated or something makes you stronger? Or losing somebody you love? And what about handicapped people in general?

Yes it does make you stronger. Ask people who had a limb removed, lost someone or someone with AIDS - they tell you about how they had to rebuild their life. Rebuilding a life make you stronger, you learn to view things outside of your frame work, you see the frality of life and cheerish the things that matter in life.

As for hanidcapped people - the one thing I always hear from a good friend of mine who works the handicapped is how much handicapped people hate being treated differently. He is always saying they love their lives, sure they have challenges but he says he's always amazed at how they seem to overcome any thing.

>In the end you die anyway. If he fixes 1 bad thing why not the other ones as well if he can do so as you seem to think since you believe in miracles.

Life can't be all peaches and cream. Everyone has to have trials and tribulations, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the roads gonna be easy the only thing the God insures is that you won't be going it alone.

>So are all the 'saved' people good people and all those who suffer and or die the bad ones?

Absolutely not!


>I can't say I really respect people's religious views.

Then you are not criticising you are attacking. The rules of debate have left the building, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to politics.

>I don't care but indifference is something else than respect. I think this goes both ways if you're honest.

Yes with some people. But I do not disrespect your views, I may not agree with them but so is the nature of religion. Being open minded is recoginsing these differences and trying to understand a person point a view.

I have a hard time arguing religion with people who know nothing about religion. They tout out of context references and argue points in which they've disscussed with friend never really find out what religion really says. You cannot shout from your soap box until you understand both sides of the argument.

>To me 'faith' is a sign of ignorance and perhaps even some sort of stupidity and lack of strenght to face the world on your own (just my opinion)

That is not criticism. Criticism is constructive not demeaning.

Faith is not logical (hif was right, and he put it very eloquently)therfore it will always seem crazy to people trying to rationalize it. I

It seems that you have never had faith in anything, so you would never understand how one can believe something on faith. Do not judge what you don't know.

>Nazis believed they were right as well, so to you it is better that they believed in that than in nothing at all?

I have never thought of it in that terms. My apologies.


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 19:58:34 2004  
  I think the possibility of a god is more of a comfort thing. It's like.. an imaginary friend that noone laughs at you for having.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:00:15 2004  
  i was telling a friend about this the other day.

many people gave up on God because they don't get what they want.

they go to church, they look for him everywhere and cry out to him, "GIMME!"

gimme money, gimme someone i love, gimme a life, gimme gimme gimme.

then god answers,"i gave u life didn't i?"

"that it?" we answer.

"yes, that's it. the rest is up to you little grasshopper."

and then we feel disappointed.
we feel hurt cos our hurt is not healed.
we feel disappointed cos our needs and demands are not met.

then we feel angry. then we find an eternity trying ignoring him and trying to tell ourselves and people that he does not exist.

we use reason. we use logic. we use rationality.

in fact i find atheist the strongest believers in a higher being sometimes.

if he does not exist, why even try proving something that does not exist?

just my 2 cents. haha~


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:03:57 2004  
  chanz said:
>many people gave up on God because they don't get what they want.

and i think these are the people that go on to decriminate and persecute relgious people.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:09:53 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>chanz said:
>>many people gave up on God because they don't get what they want.
>
>and i think these are the people that go on to decriminate and persecute relgious people.

lol. most of them do...


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:14:12 2004  
  chanz said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>chanz said:
>>>many people gave up on God because they don't get what they want.
>>
>>and i think these are the people that go on to decriminate and persecute relgious people.
>
>lol. most of them do...

each to their own i say - no1 should have to apologize 4 their beliefs, no matter how strongly they in believe them


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:27:22 2004  
  Is discriminating the people the same thing as discriminating the god?


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:33:43 2004  
  socialyD said:
>Christophe said:
>
>
>>And explain to me then why some people would be 'saved' by 'miracles' and others not. And no 'he moves in mysterious ays' crap please, that's just saying I don't know but I'm right.
>
>Everything has a purpose and timing when you're done, you're done. If a miracle happens it isn't your time. God may not decide whether you end up in heaeven or hell but he does decide when you get go.
>
>
>>So what? Ever heard of chance? Some ppl just can take more than other ones or are just lucky sometimes.
>
>Again talk to an Onocolgist, Cardiologist, trauma surgeon, parmedic etc... They'll all tell you this is not chance. They're are almost always simlarities in stories and 'healing' are 100% the chances of that happening statisticly are 1 in a hundred million
>
>>If you believe the above you have to believe that "he" voluntary doesn't save others as well since it is within his power anyway but he doesn't, so what does that tell you?
>
>
>It tells me that life ends for some while it goes on for others. He has a purpose and a plan for that life.
>
>

Now wait a minute, do we have freedom of choice or does He have a plan? Pick one. If it's the prior then surely we have the freedom to get our sorry butts killed at the tragic age of 25, in spite of all the good we might have *chosen* to do had we lived.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 20:37:44 2004  
  in all honesty.

not really.

people have one fatal flaw that we cannot change about them.

that we are human.


we make mistakes. we misinterpretate. we percieve. we have judgement. we have an opinion. we have beliefs. we have faith. we have biasness. etc, etc.

due to that, our ideas may never come close to whatever God wanted us to do.

a lot of people preaches God with personal interests in their hearts. which is why i am against organised religion. especially the vatican.

u see it everywhere around you. it is not only limited to christianity.
so much blood has been spilt in the name of God.

it just against the ideas of people. not God. :)


 
addi Posted: Mon Jan 19 21:08:27 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:

>each to their own i say - no1 should have to apologize 4 their beliefs, no matter how strongly they in believe them

Most of the time i'm with you on this, but it also needs to be pointed out that religious beliefs are not always so innocent. They can/have impart emotional and physical harm to others (I'll spare you examples for now). as chanz said the tragedies committed in the name of God are numerous. In those instances I can't say, "to each their own".


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:01:39 2004  
  addison said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>
>>each to their own i say - no1 should have to apologize 4 their beliefs, no matter how strongly they in believe them
>
>Most of the time i'm with you on this, but it also needs to be pointed out that religious beliefs are not always so innocent. They can/have impart emotional and physical harm to others (I'll spare you examples for now). as chanz said the tragedies committed in the name of God are numerous. In those instances I can't say, "to each their own".

at least these wars and atrocities are commited because they are believed! unlike other such 'causes'. I would call religious genocide much more innocent than killing for oil or land!


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:15:59 2004  
  *waits for righteous explosion* :D


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:19:00 2004  
  choke said:
>*waits for righteous explosion* :D

*was thinking the same exact thing* :p


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:23:58 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>choke said:
>>*waits for righteous explosion* :D
>
>*was thinking the same exact thing* :p

popcorn mesh?


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:33:46 2004  
  choke said:
>meshuggah said:
>>choke said:
>>>*waits for righteous explosion* :D
>>
>>*was thinking the same exact thing* :p
>
>popcorn mesh?


Yes, that would be nice.

Orville Redenbacher's pour over? ;)



 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:40:09 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>choke said:
>>meshuggah said:
>>>choke said:
>>>>*waits for righteous explosion* :D
>>>
>>>*was thinking the same exact thing* :p
>>
>>popcorn mesh?
>
>
>Yes, that would be nice.
>
>Orville Redenbacher's pour over? ;)
>
No idea what that is but if u can pour it it sounds good :D I believe i have sum cheesecake sumwhere too...


 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:44:37 2004  
  chanz said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>chanz said:
>>>many people gave up on God because they don't get what they want.
>>
>>and i think these are the people that go on to decriminate and persecute relgious people.
>
>lol. most of them do...

I don't really agree with this. Using what I see in the forum and in real-life, the non-believers are not the ones who usually start such discussions, attacking other people's beliefs, trying to convert them. They 'discriminate' and 'persecute' only in a response.

I might not agree with some of Christophe's beliefs, but his attacks are often only in response to something posed to him.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:45:56 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>addison said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>
>>>each to their own i say - no1 should have to apologize 4 their beliefs, no matter how strongly they in believe them
>>
>>Most of the time i'm with you on this, but it also needs to be pointed out that religious beliefs are not always so innocent. They can/have impart emotional and physical harm to others (I'll spare you examples for now). as chanz said the tragedies committed in the name of God are numerous. In those instances I can't say, "to each their own".
>
>at least these wars and atrocities are commited because they are believed! unlike other such 'causes'. I would call religious genocide much more innocent than killing for oil or land!

yeah, killing someone in the name of god is a good thing right ?
Or at least better than killing for material gain ?
Hmm, you could be a Palestinian militant with that belief structure.
Or a really old Crusader.
Perhaps the Inquisition wasn't really all that bad.


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:49:46 2004  
  ahh.. there we go..


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:50:06 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>yeah, killing someone in the name of god is a good thing right ?
>Or at least better than killing for material gain ?
>Hmm, you could be a Palestinian militant with that belief structure.

i was meaning more along the lines of they believe they are doing the right thing rather than just for their own game

>Or a really old Crusader.
>Perhaps the Inquisition wasn't really all that bad.

u neva know


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:53:52 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>yeah, killing someone in the name of god is a good thing right ?
>>Or at least better than killing for material gain ?
>>Hmm, you could be a Palestinian militant with that belief structure.
>
>i was meaning more along the lines of they believe they are doing the right thing rather than just for their own game

I there a difference ?
Do you think that Attila actually felt that what he was doing was morally wrong but did it anyway to get material gain ?
I don't think so.



 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:58:32 2004  
  >Christophe said:
>>So what? Ever heard of chance? Some ppl just can take more than other ones or are just lucky sometimes.

socialyD said:
>Again talk to an Onocolgist, Cardiologist, trauma surgeon, parmedic etc... They'll all tell you this is not chance. They're are almost always simlarities in stories and 'healing' are 100% the chances of that happening statisticly are 1 in a hundred million

Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.

Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?

It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.

My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 22:58:34 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>I there a difference ?

i believe there is


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:01:11 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>addison said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>
>>>each to their own i say - no1 should have to apologize 4 their beliefs, no matter how strongly they in believe them
>>
>>Most of the time i'm with you on this, but it also needs to be pointed out that religious beliefs are not always so innocent. They can/have impart emotional and physical harm to others (I'll spare you examples for now). as chanz said the tragedies committed in the name of God are numerous. In those instances I can't say, "to each their own".
>
>at least these wars and atrocities are commited because they are believed! unlike other such 'causes'. I would call religious genocide much more innocent than killing for oil or land!

wow


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:01:54 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>I there a difference ?
>
>i believe there is

so you think it was ok for the crusaders to kill the Muslims who refused to convert Christianity, but not ok for the allies to kill nazis to liberate Europe ?


 
choke Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:03:03 2004  
  webmaster said:
Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>

I dont know. Or maybe for those less humble - I dont care?


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:04:27 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>I there a difference ?
>>
>>i believe there is
>
>so you think it was ok for the crusaders to kill the Muslims who refused to convert Christianity, but not ok for the allies to kill nazis to liberate Europe ?



murder by any name is still murder.

kill one, you're a murderer
kill many, you're a serial killer
kill a nation, you're a conquerer...




 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:06:08 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>I there a difference ?
>>
>>i believe there is
>
>so you think it was ok for the crusaders to kill the Muslims who refused to convert Christianity, but not ok for the allies to kill nazis to liberate Europe ?

i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.

i say good on the crusaders for being willing and brave enough to stand up for sumthin they believed wholeheartedly in - even if it was the wrong thing


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:07:24 2004  
  mayb innocent was the wrong word :P


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:08:23 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>ifihadahif said:
>>>>I there a difference ?
>>>
>>>i believe there is
>>
>>so you think it was ok for the crusaders to kill the Muslims who refused to convert Christianity, but not ok for the allies to kill nazis to liberate Europe ?
>
>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>
>i say good on the crusaders for being willing and brave enough to stand up for sumthin they believed wholeheartedly in - even if it was the wrong thing

Ted Bundy believed he was doing the right thing.
The Palestinian homicide bombers believe what they are doing is, not only the right thing, but their god demands it.
Osama Bin Laden thinks what he is doing is the right thing.
Guess it's ok then eh ?


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:09:20 2004  
  webmaster said:
>
>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>
>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>
>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>
>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.

i believe this forum is by itself a living testimony of what u call a miracle. what are the chances of people living so far apart, with different points of view and cultures understanding and learning together?

a miracle doesn't have be something spectacular.

everyone is looking for miracles. religion tells us to look for it. people seek for it.
but miracles are found everyday.
life itself is a miracle.

God hides things by keeping it near us. it's just that we are too busy searching and looking and we stopped discovering and living.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:09:30 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>mayb innocent was the wrong word :P

yeah, I can't think of a single instance where killing another human being can be labelled as innocent.


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:10:06 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:11:56 2004  
  chanz said:
>webmaster said:
>>
>>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>>
>>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>>
>>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>>
>>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.
>
>i believe this forum is by itself a living testimony of what u call a miracle. what are the chances of people living so far apart, with different points of view and cultures understanding and learning together?
>
>a miracle doesn't have be something spectacular.
>
>everyone is looking for miracles. religion tells us to look for it. people seek for it.
>but miracles are found everyday.
>life itself is a miracle.
>
>I like miracle whip in my chicken salad . . .
>


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:12:40 2004  
  i notice you haven't mentioned george bush in any of this . . .


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:12:42 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.

if u think killing for what u believe in is a lot more innocent.

try telling it to the person staring down the barrel of your gun and their families.


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:13:47 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.

But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?


 
Kira Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:14:32 2004  
  chanz said:
>
>
>i believe this forum is by itself a living testimony of what u call a miracle. what are the chances of people living so far apart, with different points of view and cultures understanding and learning together?
>

Aw, don't make the man go and call his website normal, I don't think I can take it!


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:14:33 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>i notice you haven't mentioned george bush in any of this . . .

didn't really feel like distracting a religious debate with a political one.
George Bush would be for a different thread.


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:16:59 2004  
  libra said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>
>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?

im not sure i understand ya... believing for need to kill for land?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:17:26 2004  
  libra said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>
>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?

I won't take that bait here, that argument is for a different thread, this debate is religious.
But I would be happy to thrash you on another thread if you would care to start one.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:18:26 2004  
  well its off the topic currently at hand, but....

Farewell happy Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrors, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor; One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at last
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition through in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n!
Milton, Paradise Lost.





also, check this out

http://www.literature.org/authors/milton-john/paradise-lost/


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:19:04 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>libra said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>ifihadahif said:
>>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>>
>>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this.>
>im not sure i understand ya... believing for need to kill for land?

Yes, up until the 20th century killing to acquire land and power was considered a perfectly acceptable behaviour. There was no huge outcry when someone decided to create an empire.



 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:20:12 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>libra said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>ifihadahif said:
>>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>>
>>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?
>
>im not sure i understand ya... believing for need to kill for land?

to me, its JUST as plausable as the belief that you're carrying out some mission for some divine entity...

and who decides what it is that is more of a belief, and who knows which belief is right...

I still can't see your point, but, actually, I'm glad i can't.


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:22:41 2004  
  Sailovzi said:

>Aw, don't make the man go and call his website normal, I don't think I can take it!

hahaha....

hell no, this ain't normal...

i learnt a few things in here

sheep handling, chicken wrestling, belgian humour, erm... mesh's erm... stuff and all


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:22:53 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>libra said:
>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>ifihadahif said:
>>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>>
>>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?
>
>I won't take that bait here, that argument is for a different thread, this debate is religious.
>But I would be happy to thrash you on another thread if you would care to start one.

oh we've had that argument a few times already hif...and i've left that fight...I agree to disagree. ;-)


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:26:13 2004  
  hehe i think mi argument has collapsed... perhaps itz time 2 retreat and rethink mi strategies....

i think i should tidy up mi argument tho - killing and war was not the right way to take the argument (im not arguing with killing being wrong), im saying, is doing something because you believe totally and utterly in it being right really wrong?

hehe u guyz need a warning sign 4 newbies :P 'beware ifihadahif's wrath'....


 
iggy Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:28:48 2004  
  haha

not only for ifihadahif

there are warning signs for other forummers as well. it depends on which topic u are dealing in...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:29:15 2004  
  libra said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>libra said:
>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>ifihadahif said:
>>>>>sry_not4sale said:
>>>>>>i neva said any of it was 'ok' - i jst said, killing for what you believe in is alot more innocent than killing for land or gain.
>>>
>>>But don't these people who kill for land or gain BELIEVE in the fact that they NEED to do this. Take George-y boy for the moment...he believes this war is right...so do a lot of others...and yet, he's more evil than...lets say, Hitler?
>>
>>I won't take that bait here, that argument is for a different thread, this debate is religious.
>>But I would be happy to thrash you on another thread if you would care to start one.
>
>oh we've had that argument a few times already hif...and i've left that fight...I agree to disagree. ;-)

Ok darlin' . . .*innocent peck on the cheek*
:-)


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:29:49 2004  
  chanz said:
>haha
>
>not only for ifihadahif
>
>there are warning signs for other forummers as well. it depends on which topic u are dealing in...

maybe you could draw up a list, chanz


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:32:07 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>hehe i think mi argument has collapsed... perhaps itz time 2 retreat and rethink mi strategies....
>
>i think i should tidy up mi argument tho - killing and war was not the right way to take the argument (im not arguing with killing being wrong), im saying, is doing something because you believe totally and utterly in it being right really wrong?
>
>hehe u guyz need a warning sign 4 newbies :P 'beware ifihadahif's wrath'....

hahaha, just needed a little exercise before turning in tonite
:-)


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:34:16 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>sry_not4sale said:
>>hehe i think mi argument has collapsed... perhaps itz time 2 retreat and rethink mi strategies....
>>
>>i think i should tidy up mi argument tho - killing and war was not the right way to take the argument (im not arguing with killing being wrong), im saying, is doing something because you believe totally and utterly in it being right really wrong?
>>
>>hehe u guyz need a warning sign 4 newbies :P 'beware ifihadahif's wrath'....
>
>hahaha, just needed a little exercise before turning in tonite
>:-)

well fought....

u r a true.. crusader... :P


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:37:28 2004  
  thanks, and welcome to the forum sry.
g'nite all . . .
going on midnight here now.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:38:45 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>thanks, and welcome to the forum sry.
>g'nite all . . .
>going on midnight here now.


Aye wait hif, I must know. Is your name from the band? Ifihadahifi


 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 19 23:39:04 2004  
  chanz said:
>i believe this forum is by itself a living testimony of what u call a miracle. what are the chances of people living so far apart, with different points of view and cultures understanding and learning together?
>
>a miracle doesn't have be something spectacular.
>
>everyone is looking for miracles. religion tells us to look for it. people seek for it.
>but miracles are found everyday.
>life itself is a miracle.
>
>God hides things by keeping it near us. it's just that we are too busy searching and looking and we stopped discovering and living.

We're looking at 'miracles' in different contexts. For you, it's life and the simple pleasures. SocialyD was referring to miracles as impossibilities happening.

Chances of people living apart coming together to share their views might have been a miracle 10 years back, but as we progress with technology and the Internet, it's no longer such a wonder.


 
iggy Posted: Tue Jan 20 01:33:12 2004  
  JQ, i've been wandering around other forum boards as well haha.

but none has quirkier forummers like GT.

cheers plonkers and plinkers and plankers


 
Kira Posted: Tue Jan 20 01:45:29 2004  
  And blinkers and blonkers and bonkers and bankers, misters and monsters and feasters and cranksters, and prankers, oOoh go to bed.


 
iggy Posted: Tue Jan 20 01:57:03 2004  
  libra said:
>maybe you could draw up a list, chanz

i'll try

hif - anything against the Bush administration and his chicken and don't ever mention that he looks horrible in that thong

christophe - don't ever say that belgian waffles are bad. anything that is pro-american and pro-religion is bad

addi - don't mention the sheep




 
choke Posted: Tue Jan 20 03:27:43 2004  
  chanz said:
>addi - don't mention the sheep
>
>
Im intrigued..


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:11:35 2004  
  choke said:
>chanz said:
>>addi - don't mention the sheep
>>
>>
>Im intrigued..

Don't be. It's all a bad misunderstanding. Some of the nasty plonkers here like to pick on me cuz I once had a girlfriend that was a sheep, but she was tragically run over by a pickle truck and...and...
sorry can't go on : (


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:29:13 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen while you sleep.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:29:20 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen while you sleep.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:29:21 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen while you sleep.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:29:21 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen while you sleep.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 07:29:21 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen while you sleep.


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 08:06:04 2004  
  Wow, a lot can happen when you click "post" five times : )


 
mat_j Posted: Tue Jan 20 08:27:31 2004  
  is there still room on this thread to post crap or what?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 09:11:08 2004  
  mat_j said:
>is there still room on this thread to post crap or what?

oh yeah, crap anywhere you want.
even in church.
we'll hear it.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:07:21 2004  
  In the famous words of chucky: I'm baaaack.

SocialyD, my question to you is once again a simple: how do you know everything you seem to know?


And if god doesn't chose wether we go to hell or not why live up to his stuff since it isn't his call anyway?

And the miracle thing: you said yourself: the chances are 1 in 100 million. I don't know If you have ever played with dice but try to roll 6 times in a row, you have an equal chance of getting every number 1 statistcly, I wonder how many rolls it will take you before you get them all.

When playing cards there's a chance in which cards you will get as well. Is a full house a miracle?

How do you know 'he' has a purpose? Did he or anybody else who could know it from him tell you?

And seeing life from a different point of view isn't automaticly being stronger. If you think you'd be so much stronger with a serious disease why don't you go and catch one if it makes you so much better? Or why not voluntarely chop off your feet?

This has nothing to do with feeling sorry for handicapped people but thinking that they shouldn't complain because hey, they're stronger now, they're all happy and have every reason to be.

Christophe said:
>In the end you die anyway. If he fixes 1 bad thing why not the other ones as well if he can do so as you seem to think since you believe in miracles.

socialyD said:
>Life can't be all peaches and cream. Everyone has to have trials and tribulations, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the roads gonna be easy the only thing the God insures is that you won't be going it alone.

That is not a response to the question.


If he decides which life goes one because of his master plan why let a 1 year old kid for example die and let somebody like Stalin live as a child? Perhaps the child would have been even worse, yes, but if you say one thing, again, you have to use equal standards and blame 'him' at the same time for not having killed people like that while 'he' kills others.

I do know about religion, I was a christian up to the age of about 12-13 so I know what it's like.

But now I have grown up.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:10:10 2004  
  sry_not4sale said:
>at least these wars and atrocities are commited because they are believed! unlike other such 'causes'. I would call religious genocide much more innocent than killing for oil or land!

That much I agree with.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:11:10 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>So, what do you consider acceptable?
>
>We can compare and contrast.

Ask me something if I would see it as acceptable and I'll tell you.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:14:37 2004  
  chanz said:
>i don't think that faith is a stupid thing.
>
>some people have faith in different things.
>
>christophe believes in what he says and views. that is faith in your own.
>
>trog has faith in a higher power. that is faith in God.
>
>addi... well he has his sheep.
>
>an interesting conversation i had with a monk before...
>i questioned him about faith and why he holds on so strongly to his beliefs...
>he told me something like this,
>"the human eye does not see everything most of the time. sometimes they can't even see the reality before them. that's where faith comes in. faith sees the reality that the human eye cannot see."
>
>something i learnt while serving time. faith is important. u can take away a man's freedom. u can take away everything from him. but u can never take his faith away from him. when that happens the human spirit will break.
>faith does not equate religion. sometimes it just means the things that u believe in.
>
>
>*i know that christophe's gonna refute the above statement haha*


You can't compare faith in a higher power with faith of knowing that 1+1=2

And the monk was telling you crap.

You can explain anything like that, it just isn't good enough. It's like saying 'why does a book have pages? Just have faith. Period.'




 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:16:31 2004  
  Here's the story again since nobody replied to it.



There once was a farmer worked very hard and had several parcels of excellent land because of it.

One day the local priest asked if the farmer could show him his fields and crops.

They arrived at the first plot.
It was very well taken care of and looked very good as well. There weren't any weeds anywhere on the piece of land, just beautiful crops. Clearly the farmer must have spend days to get the ground the way it was.

"You have done a terrific job my friend, and god has clearly helped you in your labour as I see from the result.", the priest said as he was astonished by the work the farmer had done.

They went to the second plot, and several others after that, and they all looked marvellous. The priest thanked god for what he had seen and what god had created and given mankind.

They were walking to the farmer's last piece of land.

"Here it is", the farmer said.

The priest looked around but couldn't see anything but rocks, weeds, and dried up plants; all in all a desolate piece of wasteland.

"What happened here?" the confused priest asked.

The farmer replied: This is what god has managed to do by himself.


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:22:40 2004  
  Sailovzi said:

>Now wait a minute, do we have freedom of choice or does He have a plan? Pick one. If it's the prior then surely we have the freedom to get our sorry butts killed at the tragic age of 25, in spite of all the good we might have *chosen* to do had we lived.

He does have a master design but that is the beauty of free will your life goes according to your free will choices. However the world around moves to a different beat so to say.

As I mentioned before it is difficult to explain a concept that take people years to grasp in one post. So if you really want to understand it do you own research. You should be doing that any way you shouldn't be taking anyone's word on such a complex issue


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:30:40 2004  
  webmaster said:
>I don't really agree with this. Using what I see in the forum and in real-life, the non-believers are not the ones who usually start such discussions, attacking other people's beliefs, trying to convert them. They 'discriminate' and 'persecute' only in a response.

Yes you are right on this note. But I also see that the only people it is okay to discriminate against is christains. One is allowed to attack the beliefs and upbringing with reckless abondon.

I personaly take an agnostic view to religion. But just because I don't believe in the chirstian view of god does not mean in any way that I think its okay to attack or discriminate anyone for their beleifs. I will always play the devils advocate in dicussions with christianinty because I believe that the ones that start these arguments are usually under educated and over excited, so they're ill equiped to handel the discussion put to them. Then debates leave the level of reasoning and turn into childish bickering. I like to help out the underdogs.


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:34:14 2004  
  webmaster said:

>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>
>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>
>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>
>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.

But I pose the same question. Why couldn't it be God? Your so easy to dismiss the possiblity of diety when saying that science is the answer and it will eventually. If person is completly healed of cancer without the aid of medicines, or chemo they're are simply healed by prayer how does science explain that.


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:38:55 2004  
  ifihadahif said:

>yeah, I can't think of a single instance where killing another human being can be labelled as innocent.

How about doctor assited suicid?


 
mat_j Posted: Tue Jan 20 11:57:39 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>mat_j said:
>>is there still room on this thread to post crap or what?
>
>oh yeah, crap anywhere you want.
>even in church.
>we'll hear it.

Is this about the pee thing?


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 12:10:47 2004  
  socialyD said:
>webmaster said:
>
>>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>>
>>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>>
>>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>>
>>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.
>
>But I pose the same question. Why couldn't it be God? Your so easy to dismiss the possiblity of diety when saying that science is the answer and it will eventually. If person is completly healed of cancer without the aid of medicines, or chemo they're are simply healed by prayer how does science explain that.

Chance.

And as I said before, it's not because you don't understand something yet that it is created by a god.

And about why it would be so unlikely to be created by a god: why add the extra chackle to the chain?


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 12:16:42 2004  
  Christophe said:
>In the famous words of chucky: I'm baaaack.
>
>SocialyD, my question to you is once again a simple: how do you know everything you seem to know?
>
>
>And if god doesn't chose wether we go to hell or not why live up to his stuff since it isn't his call anyway?
>
>And the miracle thing: you said yourself: the chances are 1 in 100 million. I don't know If you have ever played with dice but try to roll 6 times in a row, you have an equal chance of getting every number 1 statistcly, I wonder how many rolls it will take you before you get them all.
>
>When playing cards there's a chance in which cards you will get as well. Is a full house a miracle?
>
>How do you know 'he' has a purpose? Did he or anybody else who could know it from him tell you?
>
>And seeing life from a different point of view isn't automaticly being stronger. If you think you'd be so much stronger with a serious disease why don't you go and catch one if it makes you so much better? Or why not voluntarely chop off your feet?
>
>This has nothing to do with feeling sorry for handicapped people but thinking that they shouldn't complain because hey, they're stronger now, they're all happy and have every reason to be.
>
>Christophe said:
>>In the end you die anyway. If he fixes 1 bad thing why not the other ones as well if he can do so as you seem to think since you believe in miracles.
>
>socialyD said:
>>Life can't be all peaches and cream. Everyone has to have trials and tribulations, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the roads gonna be easy the only thing the God insures is that you won't be going it alone.
>
>That is not a response to the question.
>
>
>If he decides which life goes one because of his master plan why let a 1 year old kid for example die and let somebody like Stalin live as a child? Perhaps the child would have been even worse, yes, but if you say one thing, again, you have to use equal standards and blame 'him' at the same time for not having killed people like that while 'he' kills others.
>
>I do know about religion, I was a christian up to the age of about 12-13 so I know what it's like.
>
>But now I have grown up.


 
Asswipe Posted: Tue Jan 20 12:23:28 2004  
  ifihadahif said:

>Yes, up until the 20th century killing to acquire land and power was considered a perfectly acceptable behaviour. There was no huge outcry when someone decided to create an empire.
>

I've not a clue how your argument reached this point as i've just been skimming this insanely long, exponentially growing thread but i'd like to refute your point anyway.

Christians(the majority of europe) after around 500AD, preached good will to the neighbors and crap, this included not killing your fellow man. Prior to the roman empire's conversion to christianity(around 200AD or so?)Killing people had been used quite frequently and people lived similar to feudal japan w/ revenge and that sort being normal, and all honor being on the battlefield. this is until the christians began stopping it. in place of revenge they implemented something called a Wergild, which translates into Man gold, basically the amount of money that a man is worth, so if he's killed, the killers can pay the tax and not have to look over their shoulder all the time. this was a very effective stance taken by the Christian Church in stopping killing.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:03:33 2004  
  socialyD said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>yeah, I can't think of a single instance where killing another human being can be labelled as innocent.
>
>How about doctor assited suicid?

I am a supporter of doctor assisted suicide. I'm not sure if innocent would be the right word here, but I get your point.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:08:13 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Yes, up until the 20th century killing to acquire land and power was considered a perfectly acceptable behaviour. There was no huge outcry when someone decided to create an empire.
>>
>
>I've not a clue how your argument reached this point as i've just been skimming this insanely long, exponentially growing thread but i'd like to refute your point anyway.
>
>Christians(the majority of europe) after around 500AD, preached good will to the neighbors and crap, this included not killing your fellow man. Prior to the roman empire's conversion to christianity(around 200AD or so?)Killing people had been used quite frequently and people lived similar to feudal japan w/ revenge and that sort being normal, and all honor being on the battlefield. this is until the christians began stopping it. in place of revenge they implemented something called a Wergild, which translates into Man gold, basically the amount of money that a man is worth, so if he's killed, the killers can pay the tax and not have to look over their shoulder all the time. this was a very effective stance taken by the Christian Church in stopping killing.

what about the British and Ottoman empires ?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:12:06 2004  
  I just wanted to put things in perspective. Two things can happen when I die. One - I die, god's real, I go to heaven. Two - I die, there's no one there, i just float around for eternity, or whatever. Either way, I feel my life will have been well spent, because I was happy. Simple, yes?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:15:14 2004  
  Even doctor assisted suicide, and any suicide is wrong. NO ONE should go like that. Not because it's a sin, and I'm not even sure if it is, but just to take your own life because things don't go your way, or whatever, is wrong. And to assist people in that is just... what's the word... wierd...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:43:59 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Even doctor assisted suicide, and any suicide is wrong. NO ONE should go like that. Not because it's a sin, and I'm not even sure if it is, but just to take your own life because things don't go your way, or whatever, is wrong. And to assist people in that is just... what's the word... wierd...

taking your own life is your own choice and nobody else's.
It's a very personal thing and no one else should have a say in it unless you wish it so.
There are many reasons why one would want to take one's own life, the most common to me would be a terminal disease with zero quality of life and/or excruciating pain. Who are you to say this person should have to live and suffer when a painless death is preferable ?


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 13:50:58 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>I just wanted to put things in perspective. Two things can happen when I die. One - I die, god's real, I go to heaven. Two - I die, there's no one there, i just float around for eternity, or whatever. Either way, I feel my life will have been well spent, because I was happy. Simple, yes?

No.

Ever thought about it that things just might stop as well, like when you turn of your computer?


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 14:00:21 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Even doctor assisted suicide, and any suicide is wrong. NO ONE should go like that. Not because it's a sin, and I'm not even sure if it is, but just to take your own life because things don't go your way, or whatever, is wrong. And to assist people in that is just... what's the word... wierd...

I agree with hif on this one.

You (or anybody else for that matter) have no right at all to determine if somebody wants to live or not.

Whatever the reason, to me just not feeling like living anymore would be enough, since everybody has to decide that one for himself, everybody is free to do so and if they can still walk there is no way you can stop anybody anyway.

I don't think you have any clue about what it's like to be in constant torturing pain, and neither do I.

Some people do know what it's like though, and if they decide they can't stand it anymore it is their right to make an end to it in a painless and worthy way.

If you feel that's wrong you deserve to be in the same pain as the people you'd deny the right to stop their suffering.


Here doctor assisted suicide is legal, I don't know what it's like in the US or whatever country you're from.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 14:12:09 2004  
  Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.


 
Kira Posted: Tue Jan 20 14:21:17 2004  
  socialyD said:
>Sailovzi said:
>
>>Now wait a minute, do we have freedom of choice or does He have a plan? Pick one. If it's the prior then surely we have the freedom to get our sorry butts killed at the tragic age of 25, in spite of all the good we might have *chosen* to do had we lived.
>
>He does have a master design but that is the beauty of free will your life goes according to your free will choices. However the world around moves to a different beat so to say.
>

What are you saying here, that we have free choice, but if we don't choose to do what God meant for us, what is good for the world, that's when he'll reach out and manipulate us?

>As I mentioned before it is difficult to explain a concept that take people years to grasp in one post. So if you really want to understand it do you own research. You should be doing that any way you shouldn't be taking anyone's word on such a complex issue

Fair enough. I've thought for a while that I'd like the read some of the Bible anyway. But Christianity is an evolving thing and it's nice to hear what living, breathing people think about these issues.


 
Kira Posted: Tue Jan 20 14:31:09 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.


There comes a point where a thing has to belong to just one person.

A LIFE can only belong to one person. And if it's yours, it's yours to give up.

Tell me, Trogdor, if my life isn't mine, whose is it?

I don't belong to my family. I don't belong to society. And I definitely don't belong to God. If I want to take my life, why is that wrong? And if someone wants to help--and doctor assisted suicide is about compassion and humanity, not money--why are they wrong?

And I don't think a life is ever a waste, even when it's ended before it absolutely had to be. Wouldn't for a family to help bring peace to a dying loved one, than to stand by and watch them suffer? Wouldn't that family go on feeling better in themselves, knowing they did the loving thing?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 14:41:38 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.

It's not right morally ? says who ?
As far as I am concerned it is morally wrong to condemn a person to live with excruciating pain when that person chooses to end his/her life on their own. And it shouldn't matter if that pain is mental or physical.
No matter how weird you might think that is, it's still not your place to make that decision for someone else.


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 15:41:56 2004  
  mat_j said:

>
>Is this about the pee thing?

LOL!!!
so many deep and serious posts and then this comes outta nowhere.

Okay, maybe I'm odd, but it hit me as funny




 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 15:50:02 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.


I'm from Belgium, Europe.

And yes it is ok to pay somebody to put a painless and correctly done end to a person's life if the person wants so him/herself.

I wonder what you would say if you were unable to sleep because of the constant unbelievable pain with every breath and heartbeat (mentally or physicly) and you'd find out your prayers don't work.


Let me ask you this: if somebody in your family, let's say your mother, has decided, for whatever the reason might be (and don't go saying I know she would never do that, you can't possibly know if she wouldn't and things tend to change over time so who knows) that she doesn't want to live anymore.


Which one do you prefer: having her life gently fade away so she doesn't have to bear it anymore, or would you rather scrape her body off the concrete when she has jumped off a skyscraper?


It comes down to the same thing.

If you stand next to the bed of somebody you love and you would hear them scream in suffering, begging you to please make it stop because they can't handle the pain anymore, pleading you to put them out of their misery, and you know that you can help them like they have asked themselves, wouldn't you do it?

If not, you are an egotistical coward.

It's easy to just leave the room and think that things will get better and go praying in the church or whatever you might want to do, while that particular person is going through hell.

It's not you who has to go through the pain, it's the person lying there, so it isnt your call.

I wonder if you'd tell your mother you can't help her because it isn't morally right.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 20 15:57:23 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Even doctor assisted suicide, and any suicide is wrong. NO ONE should go like that. Not because it's a sin, and I'm not even sure if it is, but just to take your own life because things don't go your way, or whatever, is wrong. And to assist people in that is just... what's the word... wierd...
>
>taking your own life is your own choice and nobody else's.
>It's a very personal thing and no one else should have a say in it unless you wish it so.
>There are many reasons why one would want to take one's own life, the most common to me would be a terminal disease with zero quality of life and/or excruciating pain. Who are you to say this person should have to live and suffer when a painless death is preferable ?


All I have to say about that is, my mother is a pharmacist, and some of her cancer patients, who are going to end up dying soon anyways, are on three or four times the amount of morphine that should kill someone of their weight, and are still in so much pain that they literally cry and moan out loud from it. If these people want to just end it there and now, instead of prolonging the pain another three or four months, then I say its their choice.

I dont think anyone should tell them they have to remain alive.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:03:54 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
>Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.


By the way, don't just blindly believe anything your 'sources' tell you man.

You should learn to start thinking for yourself.



I'm not trying to offend you or anything but reading some of your points really makes you come across as somebody who is brainwashed by a group of biblefuckers.


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:06:02 2004  
  ifihadahif said:

>As far as I am concerned it is morally wrong to condemn a person to live with excruciating pain when that person chooses to end his/her life on their own. And it shouldn't matter if that pain is mental or physical.
>No matter how weird you might think that is, it's still not your place to make that decision for someone else.

So true, hif!

Addi, Jr. Psychologist:
Trogdor feels he can hold that belief because he "knows" it's the view God would have on the subject of suicide. And at the risk of sounding like Christophe (god forbid), I would venture that almost all of Trog's personal belief system at this point in his life has come soley from outside sources. He is surrounded by a strong set of values and beliefs. He internalizes them through constant exposure, and then when appropriate, spews them back out at others, believing that because these values work for him they should naturally apply to everyone. As he gets older he may begin to question some of these spoon fed beliefs and mentally wrestle with the demons of doubt (a serious battle for any fundamentalist to face). Some old values may be discarded, and some may be strenghtened. I just don't believe, based on what he's said here so far, that he's reached that point in his life yet.

*I understand if you are REALLY ticked with me now, Trogdor. If I were you I would be too.
Peace


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:10:52 2004  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>As far as I am concerned it is morally wrong to condemn a person to live with excruciating pain when that person chooses to end his/her life on their own. And it shouldn't matter if that pain is mental or physical.
>>No matter how weird you might think that is, it's still not your place to make that decision for someone else.
>
>So true, hif!
>
>Addi, Jr. Psychologist:
>Trogdor feels he can hold that belief because he "knows" it's the view God would have on the subject of suicide. And at the risk of sounding like Christophe (god forbid), I would venture that almost all of Trog's personal belief system at this point in his life has come soley from outside sources. He is surrounded by a strong set of values and beliefs. He internalizes them through constant exposure, and then when appropriate, spews them back out at others, believing that because these values work for him they should naturally apply to everyone. As he gets older he may begin to question some of these spoon fed beliefs and mentally wrestle with the demons of doubt (a serious battle for any fundamentalist to face). Some old values may be discarded, and some may be strenghtened. I just don't believe, based on what he's said here so far, that he's reached that point in his life yet.
>
>*I understand if you are REALLY ticked with me now, Trogdor. If I were you I would be too.
>Peace

Don't worry bout Trog, we'll have him whipped into shape soon enough.
We gonna learn him how to think !


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:26:49 2004  
  Sorry it looks like that last one I did, didn't make - my computer is currently possed by the devil.

>Christophe said:
>>In the famous words of chucky: I'm baaaack.
>>
>>SocialyD, my question to you is once again a simple: how do you know everything you seem to know?

If you asking about my religious knowledge - that's five years of religious bording schools and two semesters of religion and in depth persepctive taught by prof. george ives.

If you asking about my answers to theological questions I tell you the one thing will argue infinitly - the Bible.

>>And if god doesn't chose wether we go to hell or not why live up to his stuff since it isn't his call anyway?

God sacrificed his only son to save us from damnation. We were bought with the blood of christ. God offers us attonment it is out choice to choose salvation and eternity with God. He can save you from hell if you ask for him to but he cannot force his will upon you.

>>And the miracle thing: you said yourself: the chances are 1 in 100 million. I don't know If you have ever played with dice but try to roll 6 times in a row, you have an equal chance of getting every number 1 statistcly, I wonder how many rolls it will take you before you get them all.

I understand what you're trying to get at but it would be more accurate if you picked a number in six billion (the last world population count I can remember), then each dice you would need to distribute 1 billion evenly on six sides and then you would have to role them hoping for your number.

>>When playing cards there's a chance in which cards you will get as well. Is a full house a miracle?

As I have said miracles are not chance. Chance is based on statistics and mathmatical propability. Miracles are based on faith.

>>How do you know 'he' has a purpose? Did he or anybody else who could know it from him tell you?

If I were a christain I would say the Bible, and faith.

But personaly I find it hard to bleieve that somethings as complex as planet could run without a plan. So someone or somethings has got have one, so why not a Diety.

>>And seeing life from a different point of view isn't automaticly being stronger.

But having to create a new life does.

Framework is about your view of life it is much more complex than that. It's a thing you'll learn all about in 100 level Ethics.


If you think you'd be so much stronger with a serious disease why don't you go and catch one if it makes you so much better?

Actually I did. I had breast cancer. It's in remission, so I am holding my breath. I am only 21 years old. Breast cancer showed me how to overcome, I became stronger, and I now I can handle some of the ups and downs life throws me.

Or why not voluntarely chop off your feet?

I choped off a breast, is that good enough?


>>This has nothing to do with feeling sorry for handicapped people but thinking that they shouldn't complain because hey, they're stronger now, they're all happy and have every reason to be.

I never said they couldn't complain. Hell you should of heard me bitch and moan at how horrible it was without a breast. But it did make me stronger.

>>Christophe said:
>>>In the end you die anyway. If he fixes 1 bad thing why not the other ones as well if he can do so as you seem to think since you believe in miracles.
>>
>>socialyD said:
>>>Life can't be all peaches and cream. Everyone has to have trials and tribulations, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the roads gonna be easy the only thing the God insures is that you won't be going it alone.

If you would rephrase the question I have misunderstood the meaning.

>>If he decides which life goes one because of his master plan why let a 1 year old kid for example die and let somebody like Stalin live as a child? Perhaps the child would have been even worse, yes, but if you say one thing, again, you have to use equal standards and blame 'him' at the same time for not having killed people like that while 'he' kills others.

When it your time, you go. The kid died cause it was his times, Stalin didn't cause it wasn't his. Why does God do it that way? I don't know you gotta ask him.

Stalins rein brought upon some advances in many fields though. The cold war brought us major scienctific and medical advances.

>>I do know about religion, I was a christian up to the age of about 12-13 so I know what it's like.
>>
>>But now I have grown up.

You crossed the line from dicussion into personal insult. Next your going to tell you also reached self elightenment - of course you are your teenager ;) just kidding.

But if you think you've grown up because you left your religous belief's behind maybe you should talk to my 96 year old great grandfather who still attends church every Sunday.

Look Christophe I don't mean any of this personally. I never want to offend you or anyone on this site. I respect you and your opioions very much. I think that your extremely intelligent, and know you stuff. So no hard feeling okay.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:44:42 2004  
  No offence taken at all.

I hope you keep in mind that I don't intend any either, just stating my opinion like you do.


However, it's not because your grandfather is 96 years old that he is therefor automaticly wiser than me (not saying he isn't, I'm saying age shouldn't be used a a measure). It's nice for him if he gets something out of it, but that doesn't mean it's "the right thing to do".

You as well seem brainwashed.

The answers you give are as vague as religion in itself.

You tell me to ask him, when did you ask him about everything so he could tell you it is 'his' will?

I'm sorry to hear about you having breast cancer, there are a few cases of cancer in my family as well.

Please take no offence in this, it is in no way intended to attack you:

History and everyday life both show that most religious people are those who need something to hold on to to escape from the harsh reality of life, whatever might be the cause of their problems.

I have seen it around me as well, as I saw people around me suffer or die, they clinged to their faith because it was the only chance they had left.


I acknowledge the 'positive' effect in that view, although I see it as a placebo effect.


And whatever the chances are, as long as there is 1 chance you can always be the one who has it. People don't have to play the lottery millions of times either before they win if they get something.

I also wonder why to you everything that is written in the bible automaticly is true.

Keep in mind that most of the stuff in there has been written many years after things took place and have been blown out of proportion.

Ever taken into account that the five years of religious bording school might have something to do with your faith as well?


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:49:17 2004  
  Sailovzi said:

>What are you saying here, that we have free choice, but if we don't choose to do what God meant for us, what is good for the world, that's when he'll reach out and manipulate us?

God moves the world around us but we have free will to accept his plan for our life or not. He gives us every opportunity to move into his grace.

- Wow I just sounded like my great gramps. Crazy

>>As I mentioned before it is difficult to explain a concept that take people years to grasp in one post. So if you really want to understand it do you own research. You should be doing that any way you shouldn't be taking anyone's word on such a complex issue
>
>Fair enough. I've thought for a while that I'd like the read some of the Bible anyway. But Christianity is an evolving thing and it's nice to hear what living, breathing people think about these issues.

Good really do read it. In depth study course are cool, but you've got to go to a college where your usually deviod of religous zealot teachers.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:51:39 2004  
  Christophe said:
>No offence taken at all.
>
>I hope you keep in mind that I don't intend any either, just stating my opinion like you do.
>
>
>However, it's not because your grandfather is 96 years old that he is therefor automaticly wiser than me (not saying he isn't, I'm saying age shouldn't be used a a measure). It's nice for him if he gets something out of it, but that doesn't mean it's "the right thing to do".

Just a little off topic, but I feel compelled to respond to this point.
One of the best measuring sticks for wisdom is age. There is no other way to acquire wisdom, as it differs from education. Wisdom implies experience and more age = more experience.
That doesn't mean that all old people are wise, but it does mean the wisest are usually the oldest.


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:54:49 2004  
  of course there are a few exceptions to this : )


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 16:56:11 2004  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>No offence taken at all.
>>
>>I hope you keep in mind that I don't intend any either, just stating my opinion like you do.
>>
>>
>>However, it's not because your grandfather is 96 years old that he is therefor automaticly wiser than me (not saying he isn't, I'm saying age shouldn't be used a a measure). It's nice for him if he gets something out of it, but that doesn't mean it's "the right thing to do".
>
>Just a little off topic, but I feel compelled to respond to this point.
>One of the best measuring sticks for wisdom is age. There is no other way to acquire wisdom, as it differs from education. Wisdom implies experience and more age = more experience.
>That doesn't mean that all old people are wise, but it does mean the wisest are usually the oldest.

I agree to some extent.

However, you can learn a lot in a short time.

I'm not talking about myself here but I see no reason why a 25 year old would be any less wise than somebody at the age of 65.

And it certainly doesn't give anybody automaticly the benefit of doubt just because he or she is older.

If that would be the case any pedophile could get away with it.


 
socialyD Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:07:28 2004  
  Christophe said:
>No offence taken at all.
>
>I hope you keep in mind that I don't intend any either, just stating my opinion like you do.

I was not offended. I want to point out with the growing up comment that debate should never leave the floor of civilty. Just because our beliefs differ does not mean one is more supirior to the other.

>However, it's not because your grandfather is 96 years old that he is therefor automaticly wiser than me (not saying he isn't, I'm saying age shouldn't be used a a measure). It's nice for him if he gets something out of it, but that doesn't mean it's "the right thing to do".
>
>You as well seem brainwashed.

Oh dear, I am educated in the defense and attack of religion. I believe in knowing my oppnets every thought and ancipating it. I have had these same arguments with my parents and grand parents, however I've been standing on your side.

>The answers you give are as vague as religion in itself.

That is faith, it cannot be explained only experienced.

>You tell me to ask him, when did you ask him about everything so he could tell you it is 'his' will?

God speaks only when you listen. I am not ready to listen to God, because I am not sure I'll like the answers.

>I'm sorry to hear about you having breast cancer, there are a few cases of cancer in my family as well.
>
>Please take no offence in this, it is in no way intended to attack you:
>
>History and everyday life both show that most religious people are those who need something to hold on to to escape from the harsh reality of life, whatever might be the cause of their problems.
>
>I have seen it around me as well, as I saw people around me suffer or die, they clinged to their faith because it was the only chance they had left.
>
>
>I acknowledge the 'positive' effect in that view, although I see it as a placebo effect.
>
>
>And whatever the chances are, as long as there is 1 chance you can always be the one who has it. People don't have to play the lottery millions of times either before they win if they get something.
>
>I also wonder why to you everything that is written in the bible automaticly is true.
>
>Keep in mind that most of the stuff in there has been written many years after things took place and have been blown out of proportion.

The answer to all that is faith. Is you don't have it you don't understand it. It is not logical it seems stupid and unhealthy to believe in something that seems to have no definite answers, but some how faith answers all that I know it seems stupid - but faith is amazing it really does work wonders.

>Ever taken into account that the five years of religious bording school might have something to do with your faith as well?

Oh yeah...I hate plaid and I think that a lot of religous people are crazy. By the way I am agnostic. No orgnized religions for me, way to scary. But I always like to fight with the underdog, and for once I know something about their issue.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:31:38 2004  
  Christophe said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Where are you from Christophe? And by the way, even if the person is in constant pain, it's still not right. (morally, anyway) Granted, yes, the person could be in extreme pain, but just think for a second. We've become a society where it's considered OK to pay someone to KILL A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY! Maybe this is coming from a perspective where I believe prayer can overcome anything, but I think it's not necessary to waste a life.
>
>
>By the way, don't just blindly believe anything your 'sources' tell you man.
>
>You should learn to start thinking for yourself.
>
>
>
>I'm not trying to offend you or anything but reading some of your points really makes you come across as somebody who is brainwashed by a group of biblefuckers.

Alright, I've sat idly by, putting forth my own opinions, happily hoping maybe someone might suddenly see things my way, and perhaps it was foolish at the age of sixteen. But, when you call my friends and (church) family quote "Biblefuckers," that's where the line stops! Let me tell you that what I've heard in church isn't just spoon fed crap, it's what I believe in. And another thing. I don't just "Buy into it," I think for myself, and to me it makes sense. But you can't seem to handle that, can you. You can't seem to accept that there could be some greater power? Why not? What is it that made you assume that I just accepted what I was told. And as for my "source" he's not just some guy who tells me things that I can memorize, only to meet some tragic event and completely denounce. He's a friend to me, and a hero. If he hadn't come to my church, I would be a LOT worse off than I am right now. He tells me things that make sense. We have discussions that embody how we can live in this world, and be happy. So don't think for a sec that I'm just another... what was the word... ah yes..."Biblefucker"...
Cuz' I'm not.

Trog out
Peace


 
SntSaturn Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:45:04 2004  
  dear lord. I think I haven't checked this thread for two days and its already this full. *shakes head*

Anyways - I'm not really sure what the discussion is now.

The biggest thing I caught was along the lines of assisted suicide. I approve of being taken off of life support machines, etc. or choosing to let cancer take its course, but i would never consider it morally right to have assisted suicides.




 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:47:48 2004  
  Sorry about all the venting, but it had to be let out... This was too much abuse, from my perspective. I don't mind rebuttles, but that last remark sent me off the edge... sorry... ^_^


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:51:55 2004  
  trogdor57 said:
> I've sat idly by, putting forth my own opinions, happily hoping maybe someone might suddenly see things my way, and perhaps it was foolish at the age of sixteen. But, when you call my friends and (church) family quote "Biblefuckers," that's where the line stops!

T'was a tad bit over the line, Trog. If it makes you feel any better he's grounded for 2 weeks. Don't take it too personal. You've added a lot of stimulating discussion here lately.

> And another thing. I don't just "Buy into it," I think for myself, and to me it makes sense. But you can't seem to handle that, can you.

Jack Nicholson "A Few Good Men" Right?

> You can't seem to accept that there could be some greater power?

A lot us do accept that there could be some greater power. Don't let a few speak for us all.



>What is it that made you assume that I just accepted what I was told. And as for my "source" he's not just some guy who tells me things that I can memorize, only to meet some tragic event and completely denounce. He's a friend to me, and a hero. If he hadn't come to my church, I would be a LOT worse off than I am right now. He tells me things that make sense. We have discussions that embody how we can live in this world, and be happy.

We're a cynical bunch. Don't let us rain on your parade. Stay happy, hold on to your heros, Trogdor, and don't give up on us.



 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:54:06 2004  
  Well, it wasn't from A Few Good Men, but an interesting thought... Heh heh... Anyway, it wasn't really directed at everyone, but those who it was, you know who you are... (glares)


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:54:09 2004  
  As I said I didn't mean anything by it.

If you think you are smart enough for yourself you should also be able to determine when people are serious and when not.

You have admitted so yourself that half of what you have been saying for the past 2 weeks or so has been bullshit.

To me that shows that you have reviewed some of your points or at least aren't as sure of them as you thought you were.

How do you explain the fact that you claim to think for yourself then if you have only now "really" thought about them?

Also be careful when picking heroes. I don't know your situation and I don't know the guy but I do know you should only see yourself as your hero.

There's a Flemish saying that says 'schijn bedriegt' which comes down to the fact that when things seem too good to be true, they are.

It's very very very dangerous to somebody you seem to own something to and look up to concerning things like this since you probably can't think about it objectivly anymore.

Its not because he saved you or anything that you have to agree with everything he says and does without giving it any SERIOUS consideration yourself (this sounds familiar as well)


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:54:40 2004  
  addison said:
>trogdor57 said:
>> I've sat idly by, putting forth my own opinions, happily hoping maybe someone might suddenly see things my way, and perhaps it was foolish at the age of sixteen. But, when you call my friends and (church) family quote "Biblefuckers," that's where the line stops!
>
>T'was a tad bit over the line, Trog. If it makes you feel any better he's grounded for 2 weeks. Don't take it too personal. You've added a lot of stimulating discussion here lately.
>
>> And another thing. I don't just "Buy into it," I think for myself, and to me it makes sense. But you can't seem to handle that, can you.
>
>Jack Nicholson "A Few Good Men" Right?
>
>> You can't seem to accept that there could be some greater power?
>
>A lot us do accept that there could be some greater power. Don't let a few speak for us all.
>
>
>
>>What is it that made you assume that I just accepted what I was told. And as for my "source" he's not just some guy who tells me things that I can memorize, only to meet some tragic event and completely denounce. He's a friend to me, and a hero. If he hadn't come to my church, I would be a LOT worse off than I am right now. He tells me things that make sense. We have discussions that embody how we can live in this world, and be happy.
>
>We're a cynical bunch. Don't let us rain on your parade. Stay happy, hold on to your heros, Trogdor, and don't give up on us.
> Yeah, what he said :p

Good response addi. Everything I wish I was kind enough to say.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 17:58:22 2004  
  SntSaturn said:
>dear lord. I think I haven't checked this thread for two days and its already this full. *shakes head*
>
>Anyways - I'm not really sure what the discussion is now.
>
>The biggest thing I caught was along the lines of assisted suicide. I approve of being taken off of life support machines, etc. or choosing to let cancer take its course, but i would never consider it morally right to have assisted suicides.
>
>

Sorry for saying this but what kind of crap is that?

You don't see taking somebody off machines is assisted suicide?

So denying strangling somebody won't kill them either?


 
SntSaturn Posted: Tue Jan 20 18:08:18 2004  
  Christophe said:
>SntSaturn said:
>>dear lord. I think I haven't checked this thread for two days and its already this full. *shakes head*
>>
>>Anyways - I'm not really sure what the discussion is now.
>>
>>The biggest thing I caught was along the lines of assisted suicide. I approve of being taken off of life support machines, etc. or choosing to let cancer take its course, but i would never consider it morally right to have assisted suicides.
>>
>>
>
>Sorry for saying this but what kind of crap is that?
>
>You don't see taking somebody off machines is assisted suicide?
>
>So denying strangling somebody won't kill them either?

Its the difference between dying of natural causes or vice versa.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 20 18:12:59 2004  
  SntSaturn said:
>Christophe said:
>>SntSaturn said:
>>>dear lord. I think I haven't checked this thread for two days and its already this full. *shakes head*
>>>
>>>Anyways - I'm not really sure what the discussion is now.
>>>
>>>The biggest thing I caught was along the lines of assisted suicide. I approve of being taken off of life support machines, etc. or choosing to let cancer take its course, but i would never consider it morally right to have assisted suicides.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Sorry for saying this but what kind of crap is that?
>>
>>You don't see taking somebody off machines is assisted suicide?
>>
>>So denying strangling somebody won't kill them either?
>
>Its the difference between dying of natural causes or vice versa.


Without the machines the person would be dead already.

Isn't that messing with nature as well?

Nature doesn't pull the plug by the way, somebody who pulls the plug on the machine or who gives a lethal injection is doing the same thing.


 
SntSaturn Posted: Tue Jan 20 18:35:02 2004  
  that is your take on things christophe. Others probably agree with you.

Pulling the plug - the man is already dead.

But to have a lethal injection - that is to make a man dead.

If nothing else, it makes sense in my head.


 
addi Posted: Tue Jan 20 18:35:48 2004  
  christophe, I've noticed you have a recurring habit of beginning a sentence with a polite qualifying phrase, and then ripping into that person. It's as if saying something like "Sorry for saying this, but..." gives you a free pass to rip someone a new hole...

"Nothing personal, but you are a real dumb shit."

"Don't take this wrong, but only a stupidfuck would believe something like that."

"I don't want to insult you, but I've heard stronger arguements from my neighbor's dog, and he licks his butt."

"With all due respect, is that your face, or did a monkey crawl down your shirt collar head first?"

Just an observation : )








 

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