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What do you think 3
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 21:18:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok, I screwed up. I'm big enough to admit that. Let's start over.

High, I'd like to answer some questions people may have about christianity. Feel free to let 'er rip, and I'll see what I can do.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Jan 20 21:23:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Woops, meant to say: *Hi... y'know...


 
pheniox Posted: Tue Jan 20 21:30:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ok I got to say, mad props to trogdor. I go to the same church that he does and about an hour and a half ago he stood up and asked us to pray for you. I want you to think about that. Nuff said.

The pheniox


 
Aeon Posted: Tue Jan 20 22:54:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  pray for me? I'm a good christian. I'm offended.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 20 22:56:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thanks for the thought. But no amount of prayer could save my soul.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 20 23:21:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Thanks for the thought. But no amount of prayer could save my soul.


If you had seen all of my past pictures, you would get the idea of the kind of person I am.


 
Archangel Posted: Wed Jan 21 00:35:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thanks, but no thanks.

I worship no one and nothing.

The only faith I have is in myself.


 
Dancer Posted: Wed Jan 21 00:54:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  my experience with christianity was quite bad. right now, i try to just overlook it. it doesn't interest me at all. sorry, nothing to contribute.


 
DaveHill Posted: Wed Jan 21 04:23:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  How considerate.

*sarcasm off*
As you might have noted, i haven't posted in any of these threads, since this really pisses me off ompletely.
Kind request : leave me out of your prayers, and i'll continue to ignore you.


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 04:38:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>I don't really agree with this. Using what I see in the forum and in real-life, the non-believers are not the ones who usually start such discussions, attacking other people's beliefs, trying to convert them. They 'discriminate' and 'persecute' only in a response.

socialyD said:
>Yes you are right on this note. But I also see that the only people it is okay to discriminate against is christains. One is allowed to attack the beliefs and upbringing with reckless abondon.

Discriminating and attacking the beliefs, in my opinion, are two different things. I don't agree with either (especially discrimination) if it is unprovoked.

I don't know if it's the same elsewhere, but over here in Singapore, almost every other weekend, I get Christians coming up to me with Bibles, booklets and pamphlets asking me if I were a Christian, and when I say 'no', proceed to try to convert me.

Two things irk me when this happens.

1. They do not have the least respect for whether I had a religion or not. Simply by trying to convert me, they are telling me that my belief is wrong and theirs is right.

Several times, I told them - I will listen to what you have to say for half an hour, and you will then listen to what I have to say about Buddhism and Islam for half an hour. Never has one agreed and the tone in their excuses is 'Christianity is true, all other religions are false, so why should I listen to you.'

Such arrogance.

2. Many of such Christians who go around trying to convert others don't even truly understand what they're trying to preach. They read Genesis, Revelations, and the Gospels and they think that they know enough to spread the Word of God. Ask them fundamental questions like the history of the Bible, or how Christianity is different from Islam, and you stop them in their tracks. You wanna sell me something, you jolly well know your product well. They think that they do good by going around, but all they are doing is a diservice to their religion.


For the record, I have nothing against Christians, only when they try to push their beliefs unto me. Some of the nicest people I know are Christians. They attend church regularly, volunteer their time to charity, take care of orphans and the aged... And they do not see the need to go around preaching and trumpeting about all the good they do.


In my life, I have never, ever had a Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu come up to me and try to 'sell' me their beliefs.


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 05:20:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>
>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>
>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>
>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.

socialyD said:
>But I pose the same question. Why couldn't it be God? Your so easy to dismiss the possiblity of diety when saying that science is the answer and it will eventually. If person is completly healed of cancer without the aid of medicines, or chemo they're are simply healed by prayer how does science explain that.

As I said, I believe that when a 'miracle' healing occurs, it could be due to something which we do not yet understand. Attributing it to God, just because we don't have any answers is taking the easy way out.

If someone is miraculously healed by Christian prayer, God answered our prayers. If the person died, God said 'no'. That reconciles everything, doesn't it?

God wants my faith? Show me where prayers have healed 100% of the patients, and I'll convert right now. Show me solid proof, and quit speaking in riddles and parables. Dear God, you did not create everyone in equal in the brains department, so please, please, please don't condemn me to hell just because I could not figure out the grey areas, and thought you meant something else.

The Bible expects us to believe in blind faith, without proof or explanation. Science and medicine, on the other hand, have, and will continue to unravel the mysteries around us.


I now pose this question to you. We often read and hear of miracles and miracle healings in other religions. Now, how do you explain that? If it isn't chance, probability, or something we don't understand, it's probably the work of the Devil? How convenient.



"Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it."

Carl Sagan, Contact


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 06:51:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>webmaster said:
>>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>>
>>Two hundred years ago, an airplane would have been called miracle. Fifty years ago, healing a cancer patient would have been called a miracle. Today, an AIDs patient recovering fully would be called a miracle, but if we were to find a cure a few years down the road, it wouldn't be a miracle any more, would it?
>>
>>It falls into the same trap as 'God'. Anything we don't understand, we have to attribute it to something - God and miracles. Why can't we be humble enough to say 'I don't know...', 'I'm not sure...'.
>>
>>My chances of striking the lottery are 1 in a hundred million, but should that ever happen, I wouldn't see it as a miracle, but merely probability and chance.
>
>socialyD said:
>>But I pose the same question. Why couldn't it be God? Your so easy to dismiss the possiblity of diety when saying that science is the answer and it will eventually. If person is completly healed of cancer without the aid of medicines, or chemo they're are simply healed by prayer how does science explain that.
>
>As I said, I believe that when a 'miracle' healing occurs, it could be due to something which we do not yet understand. Attributing it to God, just because we don't have any answers is taking the easy way out.
>
>If someone is miraculously healed by Christian prayer, God answered our prayers. If the person died, God said 'no'. That reconciles everything, doesn't it?
>
>God wants my faith? Show me where prayers have healed 100% of the patients, and I'll convert right now. Show me solid proof, and quit speaking in riddles and parables. Dear God, you did not create everyone in equal in the brains department, so please, please, please don't condemn me to hell just because I could not figure out the grey areas, and thought you meant something else.
>
>The Bible expects us to believe in blind faith, without proof or explanation. Science and medicine, on the other hand, have, and will continue to unravel the mysteries around us.
>
>
>I now pose this question to you. We often read and hear of miracles and miracle healings in other religions. Now, how do you explain that? If it isn't chance, probability, or something we don't understand, it's probably the work of the Devil? How convenient.
>
>
>
>"Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it."
>
>Carl Sagan, Contact

Still incorrect. It's not that there's a God to compensate for that which we don't understand. There's a god, whose created a universe we will never understand, and whom we can turn to when we say, "I don't know" And as for miracles, It takes belief. You have to actually believe that their gonna be healed. It's like asking a guy for money, but then, you say to him, "You're probably not gonna give me the money." This decreases the chances of recieving the money, right? And as for healing in Islam, you have to remeber that they have the same God as Christians, and Buddhists, yes I can and do believe it is Satan's work. He would do anything to turn us from Christianity, even perform miracles, I think.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 06:53:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>meshuggah said:
>>Thanks for the thought. But no amount of prayer could save my soul.
>
>
>If you had seen all of my past pictures, you would get the idea of the kind of person I am.

such as?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 06:53:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  pheniox said:
>ok I got to say, mad props to trogdor. I go to the same church that he does and about an hour and a half ago he stood up and asked us to pray for you. I want you to think about that. Nuff said.
>
>The pheniox

I knew I felt something burning earlier!

I appreciate it in the way that he did something which seems right to him and probably is meant in a good way from his point of view.

However, ask you not to involve me in your prayers.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 06:58:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Still incorrect. It's not that there's a God to compensate for that which we don't understand. There's a god, whose created a universe we will never understand, and whom we can turn to when we say, "I don't know" And as for miracles, It takes belief. You have to actually believe that their gonna be healed. It's like asking a guy for money, but then, you say to him, "You're probably not gonna give me the money." This decreases the chances of recieving the money, right? And as for healing in Islam, you have to remeber that they have the same God as Christians, and Buddhists, yes I can and do believe it is Satan's work. He would do anything to turn us from Christianity, even perform miracles, I think.

lol.

So what you're saying is that only christians recieve 'miracles'?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:02:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No, only those who are prayed for strongly. It doesn't matter who it is, as long as someone who is involved has faith, in God, that the person will be healed.


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:15:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>No, only those who are prayed for strongly. It doesn't matter who it is, as long as someone who is involved has faith, in God, that the person will be healed.

Alright, just for argument's sake...

Look at all the little children in the world who suffer from, and are going to die from cancer, and you will find a mother who will pray very hard, day and night, who will even give up her own life to see her child live.

Do most (I'm not even asking 'all') of these children recover simply by prayers? How do you explain those who died?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:23:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok, touche, that's tricky. I believe it may go back to free choice, first. those children were in poor conditions because of the dictator, but i won't diverge. Yes, some may survive. Others may not. Why? I don't know, but i'm guessing He's (God) got his reasons.


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:24:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Still incorrect. It's not that there's a God to compensate for that which we don't understand. There's a god, whose created a universe we will never understand, and whom we can turn to when we say, "I don't know"

Aren't your two statements above contradicting each other? When you don't understand something and say that it's God's will, aren't you using God to compensate for your lack of understanding?


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:29:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Ok, touche, that's tricky. I believe it may go back to free choice, first. those children were in poor conditions because of the dictator, but i won't diverge.

Please diverge, because I have no idea what you're saying. Shouldn't strength in prayer come solely from the heart? Since when did poor conditions become a factor of how strongly one prays?

>Yes, some may survive. Others may not. Why? I don't know, but i'm guessing He's (God) got his reasons.

That's exactly my point. Anything and everything that happens happen for only 3 reasons:

- God said 'yes'.
- God said 'no'.
- The Devil made me do it.

That's so convenient. Why can't we take more responsibilities for our actions and consequences instead of crediting or blaming it on God?


 
addi Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:32:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:




>I don't know if it's the same elsewhere, but over here in Singapore, almost every other weekend, I get Christians coming up to me with Bibles, booklets and pamphlets asking me if I were a Christian, and when I say 'no', proceed to try to convert me.

It wasn't me, I swear! I might knock on your door asking for money, but never to convert you.



>In my life, I have never, ever had a Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu come up to me and try to 'sell' me their beliefs.

Part of that is due to fundamental differences in the tenets of those relgions, JQ. Christians are "commanded" to go out and spread the word of God, so good christians feel compelled to be obnoxious (blame that one on Paul). Some groups even take it farther. Certain "Full Gospel" believers here will flat out tell you it's not enough to be a christian and accept Jesus as Savior. You need the gift of speaking in tongues from the Holy Spirit or you're viewed as having too little faith, and being less of a christian. I tried to get this gift years ago, but was only able to speak this mysterious language when I was drunk or high (my girlfriend at the time thought I did have the "gift of tongue", but that's for another thread).

*a note to those of you asking Trogdor NOT to pray for you. Your requests only serve to put you at the top of his prayer list. You have to fool him and say you agree with everything he's said, and that you're also praying for everyone here. This will make him think you're one of the righteous dudes (dudettes) and he'll concentrate on the truely wayward lost souls here : )


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:36:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>No, only those who are prayed for strongly. It doesn't matter who it is, as long as someone who is involved has faith, in God, that the person will be healed.

Why do people still die then?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:36:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Ok, touche, that's tricky. I believe it may go back to free choice, first. those children were in poor conditions because of the dictator, but i won't diverge. Yes, some may survive. Others may not. Why? I don't know, but i'm guessing He's (God) got his reasons.

If you'd read this post by somebody else wouldn't you think it's crap?


 
iggy Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:45:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
Buddhists, yes I can and do believe it is Satan's work.

pray tell, how is buddism satan's work?

blood hell. now i am offended.

i am a christian but i never EVER say such things about other religions.

do u have any bloody idea what is buddism?

i would love to hear your version of a satanic buddist philosophy.

pray for us? how quaint. save it.
don't do things for us when we don't need any.




 
antartica Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:48:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>That's so convenient. Why can't we take more responsibilities for our actions and consequences instead of crediting or blaming it on God?

coz humans are so lame... and that only makes us human

as for the children...

free choice... free will... how about come christians who do not practice contraception? some south east asian countries are not all that well off and they pro-create like mad... damn it put's bunnies to shame! and they go on having one kid after another, and the next thing you know they are all left on the streets to fend for themselves. many of them even to poor and too ignorant to even have clothes...

and as they get older, they look for a "release" from the suffering. they take to sniffing glue or any thing to numb them for a while. maybe the lucky ones just die then. those who are not so lucky get addicted to harsher stuff... and move on to crime big and small...

did HE or did Satan as them to do it?



 
iggy Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:49:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  so if christians and muslim and jews have the same God.

would u tell me to convert from islam to christianity?

so is this the case where your God is bigger than mine?




 
antartica Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:52:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.


don't totally agree with that...

every day that i can get up and see the sun shine coming through the window, and when i consciously breathe, lighting my first fag and being able to breathe the smoke in and out... i am still alive. and to me that is enough proof that yes there are miracles!

and i think that Mesh can agree with me on this one... the ability to wake up and still "feel" alive... especially after a night with Stoli...

if that isn't a miracle. wassit?

and oh, BTW, i'm the sort who tell them Christian folks who go around bible in hand trying to market their beleifs to me to sod off...




 
antartica Posted: Wed Jan 21 07:53:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>so if christians and muslim and jews have the same God.
>
>would u tell me to convert from islam to christianity?
>
>so is this the case where your God is bigger than mine?
>
>
hmmmm

a case of my Daddy can beat up your daddy huh?...

but i totally agree with what you say dude...


 
iggy Posted: Wed Jan 21 08:02:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i went through most of your posts trogdor.
and i reread them again and again.

and i feel disturbed.

i find your views and thoughts no different from a religious extremist suicide bomber.

your conviction in that your God, your Christian God, is the one and only. and any other religion is considered a heresy. an invention of satan.


remember. there are other religions that precede your religion.

remember. that your religion took the ideas and concepts of preceding religions and inducted those practices in your customs.

remember. that a lot of traditions of your religions were pagan practices.

remember. Jesus's name was latin. not aramic.

u want proof? go on the internet. do some research. read from the other side of the fence.

u want us to listen to your side where u are not willing to listen to our side.

blind faith itself is a cardinal sin.


 
novemberrain Posted: Wed Jan 21 08:03:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  pheniox said:
>ok I got to say, mad props to trogdor. I go to the same church that he does and about an hour and a half ago he stood up and asked us to pray for you. I want you to think about that. Nuff said.
>
>The pheniox

some of us don't agree (on whatever level) and suddenly we need to be prayed for?

I think there are others out there who need your prayers more.


 
iggy Posted: Wed Jan 21 08:08:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  oh yes, before u start to pray for my soul, little grasshopper.

u can ask antartica about my faith in christianity. he is my best mate for the past 15 years.

all i can say is that Jesus had a good idea on living. and that ideas can change. but when u build blind faith around a good idea, it becomes dangerous. u don't see people crying out for blood for a good idea don;t you?

only at the end will we ever know who's right or wrong.

"Welcome to hell people. OK lawyers, politicians follow me. oh yeah christians? the muslims were right after all..."
~Rowan Ackinson "Mr. Bean"
From Rowan Ackinson live.


 
antartica Posted: Wed Jan 21 08:12:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>oh yes, before u start to pray for my soul, little grasshopper.
>
>u can ask antartica about my faith in christianity. he is my best mate for the past 15 years.
>
damn... when we got to know each other. the fella was still in nappies and even then we were already having debates about god or dog and if the devil existed...

>all i can say is that Jesus had a good idea on living. and that ideas can change. but when u build blind faith around a good idea, it becomes dangerous. u don't see people crying out for blood for a good idea don;t you?
>
>only at the end will we ever know who's right or wrong.
>
>"Welcome to hell people. OK lawyers, politicians follow me. oh yeah christians? the muslims were right after all..."
>~Rowan Ackinson "Mr. Bean"
>From Rowan Ackinson live.

wrong again!!!

remember, we talked about this one before. it's the rastaman with the mother of all dreadlocks passing out HHHUUUUGGGGGGEEEEE mo'fo blunts!!!


 
marsi Posted: Wed Jan 21 10:01:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>so if christians and muslim and jews have the same God.
>
>would u tell me to convert from islam to christianity?
>
>so is this the case where your God is bigger than mine?
>



I think those religions have different description of the same being.
If we would try to paint a portrait of hif and post it on GT, there would be a lot of different pictures. Nobody has seen him but I guess everybody has some sort of an idea in their mind how he looks like. There would be some pictures of hif in thongs and a scary one from mesh, and Christophe would say hif doesn't exist and is only a figment of our imagination ;-) ... none of those portraits could be real hif. And only hif can say who made the best portrait and captured all his characteristics.

We can argue about who has the right idea of God - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, ... but only God can say who got it right. Maybe everybody is wrong.



 
addi Posted: Wed Jan 21 10:17:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  very good analogy marsi

*hoping god doesn't look anything like hif though : )


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Jan 21 11:19:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>very good analogy marsi
>
>*hoping god doesn't look anything like hif though : )

LMAO !


 
Archangel Posted: Wed Jan 21 11:47:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>And as for miracles, It takes belief. You have to actually believe that their gonna be healed.

Ah, yes, I believe that's called the Placebo Effect.

Another I can't stand is the preachers who come on campus and tell us all we're going to hell and we're sinful people, but didn't God create us in his image? What does that say about Him?

Cursing at me because I make mistakes in God's eyes is like a carpenter blaming a 3-legged table for not standing.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 12:23:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsi said:
>chanz said:
>>so if christians and muslim and jews have the same God.
>>
>>would u tell me to convert from islam to christianity?
>>
>>so is this the case where your God is bigger than mine?
>>
>
>
>
>I think those religions have different description of the same being.
>If we would try to paint a portrait of hif and post it on GT, there would be a lot of different pictures. Nobody has seen him but I guess everybody has some sort of an idea in their mind how he looks like. There would be some pictures of hif in thongs and a scary one from mesh, and Christophe would say hif doesn't exist and is only a figment of our imagination ;-) ... none of those portraits could be real hif. And only hif can say who made the best portrait and captured all his characteristics.
>
>We can argue about who has the right idea of God - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, ... but only God can say who got it right. Maybe everybody is wrong.
>


At least hif can talk.

That makes him more powerful than god already.


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 13:11:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>Discriminating and attacking the beliefs, in my opinion, are two different things. I don't agree with either (especially discrimination) if it is unprovoked.
>
>I don't know if it's the same elsewhere, but over here in Singapore, almost every other weekend, I get Christians coming up to me with Bibles, booklets and pamphlets asking me if I were a Christian, and when I say 'no', proceed to try to convert me.
>
>Two things irk me when this happens.
>
>1. They do not have the least respect for whether I had a religion or not. Simply by trying to convert me, they are telling me that my belief is wrong and theirs is right.
>
>Several times, I told them - I will listen to what you have to say for half an hour, and you will then listen to what I have to say about Buddhism and Islam for half an hour. Never has one agreed and the tone in their excuses is 'Christianity is true, all other religions are false, so why should I listen to you.'
>
>Such arrogance.
>
>2. Many of such Christians who go around trying to convert others don't even truly understand what they're trying to preach. They read Genesis, Revelations, and the Gospels and they think that they know enough to spread the Word of God. Ask them fundamental questions like the history of the Bible, or how Christianity is different from Islam, and you stop them in their tracks. You wanna sell me something, you jolly well know your product well. They think that they do good by going around, but all they are doing is a diservice to their religion.
>
>
>For the record, I have nothing against Christians, only when they try to push their beliefs unto me. Some of the nicest people I know are Christians. They attend church regularly, volunteer their time to charity, take care of orphans and the aged... And they do not see the need to go around preaching and trumpeting about all the good they do.
>
>
>In my life, I have never, ever had a Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu come up to me and try to 'sell' me their beliefs.

Sorry I am being a dumb American I always forget that their are a lot of non-Americans on here.

I am speaking for American policies and attitudes I cannot speak for your my appoligies.


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 13:24:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:

>God wants my faith? Show me where prayers have healed 100% of the patients, and I'll convert right now. Show me solid proof, and quit speaking in riddles and parables. Dear God, you did not create everyone in equal in the brains department, so please, please, please don't condemn me to hell just because I could not figure out the grey areas, and thought you meant something else.

God does heal 100%, I've seen the effects in a woman that goes to my parents church, it was one of my big struggle when dealing with breast cancer. She went to a prayer meeting they laied hand on her and prayed, she said she felt a warm rush in her left breast (the cancerous one) and she flet over whelming peace. When she went in for tests she shocked doctor when they found no tumors at all. It was hard to hear when I was scheduled to have my breast removed. There are hundreds of stories out there simlar to this.

>The Bible expects us to believe in blind faith, without proof or explanation. Science and medicine, on the other hand, have, and will continue to unravel the mysteries around us.

World events controled, in my belief by a master plan, always acount for all these advances. Can't God's miracels exist in scientific advances?

>I now pose this question to you. We often read and hear of miracles and miracle healings in other religions. Now, how do you explain that? If it isn't chance, probability, or something we don't understand, it's probably the work of the Devil? How convenient.

In my non christain agnostic view I believe in a diety, however, I do not prescribe to the christain view of God. I think that having faith in a higher power allows for that diety to heal through faith. I believe that there are many names for God.


>"Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it."
>
>Carl Sagan, Contact

Sometimes the best answer is the simplest. When you start making things complicated you often miss the mark.


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 13:27:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:

>Alright, just for argument's sake...
>
>Look at all the little children in the world who suffer from, and are going to die from cancer, and you will find a mother who will pray very hard, day and night, who will even give up her own life to see her child live.
>
>Do most (I'm not even asking 'all') of these children recover simply by prayers? How do you explain those who died?

I believe it is very possible but I also believe that God has his timing. When you got to go, your gonna go.


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 13:32:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsi said:

>I think those religions have different description of the same being.
>If we would try to paint a portrait of hif and post it on GT, there would be a lot of different pictures. Nobody has seen him but I guess everybody has some sort of an idea in their mind how he looks like. There would be some pictures of hif in thongs and a scary one from mesh, and Christophe would say hif doesn't exist and is only a figment of our imagination ;-) ... none of those portraits could be real hif. And only hif can say who made the best portrait and captured all his characteristics.
>
>We can argue about who has the right idea of God - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, ... but only God can say who got it right. Maybe everybody is wrong.

That deserves a round of applause, extremely insightful.


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 13:34:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>At least hif can talk.
>
>That makes him more powerful than god already.

God speaks, but you have to listen.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 21 14:01:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  socialyD said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>At least hif can talk.
>>
>>That makes him more powerful than god already.
>
>God speaks, but you have to listen.

He can't type though.


 
mat_j Posted: Wed Jan 21 14:16:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>socialyD said:
>>Christophe said:
>>
>>>At least hif can talk.
>>>
>>>That makes him more powerful than god already.
>>
>>God speaks, but you have to listen.
>
>He can't type though.

Firstly- God's rich, he has someone to type things for him

Secondly- Praying for me, haha! My souls alright, i have a priest who tkaes care of that kind of thing for me. Cheers for the sentiment though

Thirdly- Can someone kill this swings and fucking roundabouts argument please, it's all equally as banal and pointless as all of the previous religious threads!!!!


 
webmaster Posted: Wed Jan 21 14:30:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  antartica said:
>webmaster said:
>>Miracles, I believe, are merely things which our level of science cannot yet explain.
>
>
>don't totally agree with that...
>
>every day that i can get up and see the sun shine coming through the window, and when i consciously breathe, lighting my first fag and being able to breathe the smoke in and out... i am still alive. and to me that is enough proof that yes there are miracles!
>
>and i think that Mesh can agree with me on this one... the ability to wake up and still "feel" alive... especially after a night with Stoli...
>
>if that isn't a miracle. wassit?
>
>and oh, BTW, i'm the sort who tell them Christian folks who go around bible in hand trying to market their beleifs to me to sod off...

As I answered Chanz in an earlier post, we're looking at it in different contexts. What I was referring to are impossibilities happening.


 
SntSaturn Posted: Wed Jan 21 15:40:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Another day at school and I have to spend at least 20 minutes reading to catch up.

As a slightly bias spectator, this is ridiculous. We all have our beliefs. Some go to greater lengths to express them.

My thoughts about trog praying for all of us:
I'm a christian, good for you for your prayers trog.
But also, shame on you/pheniox. prayers aren't meant to be noble or public. Because you choose to pray for me I shouldn't feel anything including "props to trog".

Trog, we all sin. Perhaps its time to get off your soap box and look around. Do what you can, but at least be understanding when you can do no more.


 
addi Posted: Wed Jan 21 16:03:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  SntSaturn said:

>Trog, we all sin. Perhaps its time to get off your soap box and look around. Do what you can, but at least be understanding when you can do no more.

Such a wise woman!


 
socialyD Posted: Wed Jan 21 16:12:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:

>
>Firstly- God's rich, he has someone to type things for him

Ha,ha,ha,ha that great!

>Thirdly- Can someone kill this swings and fucking roundabouts argument please, it's all equally as banal and pointless as all of the previous religious threads!!!!

Alright, It is about time I get back to my job. Even though my boss thinks I am working hard cause I am firously typing away all time. SHHHHH don't tell.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 17:49:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  OK, perhaps it is time for me to sit back and watch. I've planted seeds, and they didn't take root. Damn, but oh well. If you don't want me here anymore, fine, but I will still pray for you, like it or not. And by the way, why don't you like it. It's a "nice sentiment," then why not? I'm a little confused by that. And obviously, hostility is common, and I can't stand that anymore. I realize I'm being just as hostile, which is why I didn't get anywhere, so I'll take my leave quietly...


 
addi Posted: Wed Jan 21 18:08:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Trogdor, If the ONLY reason to stay was to "plant seeds" and convert us then I at least will bid you adou. It was inspirational.
However, don't feel obligated to leave on our account. Maybe you won't end up burning forever in hell if you reply to a "secular" subject here sometime. It doesn't always have to be about religion, does it? stick around for a while. You might pick up a few bad habits and enjoy yourself, friend. : )


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 18:10:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thanks, I intend to. This was just the first thing I happened upon, and it didn't work. I may head over to the Book section. ^_^


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 18:23:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If anyone wants to debate more though, they can reach me at:

AOL: wpa88@aol.com

AIM: trogdor57


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Jan 21 18:31:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>If anyone wants to debate more though, they can reach me at:
>
>AOL: wpa88@aol.com
>
>AIM: trogdor57

does that invite include me as well ?
because you know I will thrash you soundly! LOL


 
trogdor57 Posted: Wed Jan 21 18:33:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>If anyone wants to debate more though, they can reach me at:
>>
>>AOL: wpa88@aol.com
>>
>>AIM: trogdor57
>
>does that invite include me as well ?
>because you know I will thrash you soundly! LOL

Sure, why not?


 
SntSaturn Posted: Wed Jan 21 22:53:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Grr. I had a nice happy response typed and then managed to lose it.

Ugh, well:

Trog, I don't mean to be hostile.

What I mean to say about the prayers thing - don't go bragging about them. It certainly didn't get the pharosees very far.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 22 15:06:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>OK, perhaps it is time for me to sit back and watch. I've planted seeds, and they didn't take root. Damn, but oh well. If you don't want me here anymore, fine, but I will still pray for you, like it or not. And by the way, why don't you like it. It's a "nice sentiment," then why not? I'm a little confused by that. And obviously, hostility is common, and I can't stand that anymore. I realize I'm being just as hostile, which is why I didn't get anywhere, so I'll take my leave quietly...


You shouldn't take things too personal man.

You have to learn to take some criticism.

Anyway, I'm going to ask 1 more question:



A few here have said that everything is based upon free choice.


So if somebody gets sick or whatever it is because of the choice that person has made.

Explain to me then how babies and such can become terminal and die?

And what if people get killed by somebody else? Was this also because of their free will that the consequences were that they should have been killed?


Trog, you have a girlfriend, if somebody rapes her tomorrow are you going to tell her tha it happened because of some choices she made?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 22 19:27:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>OK, perhaps it is time for me to sit back and watch. I've planted seeds, and they didn't take root. Damn, but oh well. If you don't want me here anymore, fine, but I will still pray for you, like it or not. And by the way, why don't you like it. It's a "nice sentiment," then why not? I'm a little confused by that. And obviously, hostility is common, and I can't stand that anymore. I realize I'm being just as hostile, which is why I didn't get anywhere, so I'll take my leave quietly...

>You shouldn't take things too personal man.

Sorry...

>You have to learn to take some criticism.

Trying...

>Anyway, I'm going to ask 1 more question:

K

>A few here have said that everything is based upon free choice.
>
>
>So if somebody gets sick or whatever it is because of the choice that person has made.

Depends on the sickness. As I've said before, I also believe it is sometimes Satan's fault.

>Explain to me then how babies and such can become terminal and die?

I'll be honest, I don't know. I'm not a genius on this, I'm only human.

>And what if people get killed by somebody else? Was this also because of their free will that the consequences were that they should have been killed?

No, It's because of the free will of the person who killed them. Those who are killed are innocents. And it's a damn tragedy.

>Trog, you have a girlfriend, if somebody rapes her tomorrow are you going to tell her tha it happened because of some choices she made?

Once again, no. It's because of some sicko allowed to have free choice.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 22 19:30:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  SntSaturn said:
>Grr. I had a nice happy response typed and then managed to lose it.
>
>Ugh, well:
>
>Trog, I don't mean to be hostile.
>
>What I mean to say about the prayers thing - don't go bragging about them. It certainly didn't get the pharosees very far.

I told him not to open his mouth, but he was just so proud. Keep in mind, it was pheniox who said it. Though, yes it's true, I knew most of you didn't want to hear it. Ah, well. Whadya gonna do? Though I'll say it again, Why is it so offensive? People keep calling it a "nice sentiment, but no thanks." Just not connecting with me...


 



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