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Prayer
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 24 10:39:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  OK, last time I asked this, I didn't get a straight answer. I told some people I would pray for them. They all said the same basic thing: "It's a nice sentiment, but leave me out of it." etc. Why is it so offensive to tell someone you'll pray for them, if it's a "nice sentiment?"


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 24 11:28:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Because some people don't believe in it and see it as offencive that you think you need to save/help them by prayer or they don't want to be a part of your illusion.


 
Malik Posted: Sat Jan 24 11:46:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yup.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 24 12:39:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I disagree with Chris on this one.
If someone wants to pray for you, whether or not you believe in it, it is still a nice sentiment. It doesn't mean that they think you need help.
It is basically someone wishing only good things for you. If you can be offended by that, then god help you. (pun definitely intended but you get my drift)


 
simonvii Posted: Sat Jan 24 13:11:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>I disagree with Chris on this one.
>If someone wants to pray for you, whether or not you believe in it, it is still a nice sentiment. It doesn't mean that they think you need help.
>It is basically someone wishing only good things for you. If you can be offended by that, then god help you. (pun definitely intended but you get my drift)

yeah i agree, there've been numerous studies done that people in hospitals who are sick or injured etc. who have people praying for them or pray themselves heal faster and have better attitudes than those who dont...(tho im pretty sure the studies didnt ask who the prayer was to, and also people who keep journals or meditate and stuff also heal faster and have better attitudes, so im pretty sure its just the focusing on problems and the changing of problems and your attitde that probably does the healing, not the prayer itself, tho maybe thats why God says to pray in the first place - because it relaxes and focuses things).


 
Asswipe Posted: Sat Jan 24 13:36:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "wishing doesn't make a poor man rich." this is a quote my mom has on the fridge.

although wishing someone the best of luck, or whatever you do when you "pray", is a nice sentiment... i don't see the value in it. you "wishing" good will on others is the same as a poor man wishing to be rich. nothing comes from wishing, only actions.

and i say wishing here because that's what prayer is to me since there's no reason to believe god actually listens to ya when you pray.( please don't question this point of my argument cause it will only return to that other crappy thread)


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 24 13:50:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Like I said, I'm off my soapbox. Just don't have the experience to debate anymore.


 
novemberrain Posted: Sat Jan 24 13:55:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>I disagree with Chris on this one.
>If someone wants to pray for you, whether or not you believe in it, it is still a nice sentiment. It doesn't mean that they think you need help.
>It is basically someone wishing only good things for you. If you can be offended by that, then god help you. (pun definitely intended but you get my drift)

maybe someone praying for you doesn't think you need help, which, yes, would make it a nice sentiment. But I think there is just as much chance that they pray for you because they do think you need help, which could be considered offensive.

trogdor, were you praying for any/all of us because you think we need help?


 
libra Posted: Sat Jan 24 17:48:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yea, it's a bit offensive to me. One because it does make it seem like you think there's something wrong with me/us. And two, it makes it seem like you think you have this power to attempt to 'save me' or make me a better person or whatever, and that's MY choice. It feels condescending.

And I don't believe in it, and god would probably hate me if he/she is really there, and so he'd/she'd probably get mad at you for bringing me up. I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.


 
*m*a*s* Posted: Sat Jan 24 19:10:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think, like it was already said, that even if you don't believe you shouldn't take offence in it. If someone says they're praying for you, they're telling you that they're thinking of you and are trying in their way to help. I mean, for example, if you had a family member with cancer, unless you're friends with a top oncologist, praying for you is all someone can do. I think it's just a way to give hope to a situation where everyone feels helpless. That's really nice to have sometimes.


 
libra Posted: Sat Jan 24 19:21:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  *m*a*s* said:
>I think, like it was already said, that even if you don't believe you shouldn't take offence in it. If someone says they're praying for you, they're telling you that they're thinking of you and are trying in their way to help. I mean, for example, if you had a family member with cancer, unless you're friends with a top oncologist, praying for you is all someone can do. I think it's just a way to give hope to a situation where everyone feels helpless. That's really nice to have sometimes.

I can understand it if we were all in a situation where we needed as much help or thought as we could get. I'm not saying any of us aren't, but no one really has broadcasted the fact that they're in a rough spot and would be comforted knowing that they're in people's prayers. I can understand that from a religious point of view, its a very special thing you can do. But I don't have any major problems right now, and I'm fine, so i feel kind of offended being prayed for...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 24 22:47:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I wish good things for all my friends, not just the ones with problems.
I think that if you take offense at being prayed for, then you are making way too much of it and really should get a life.
So what if someone prays for you ?
Does it do any harm to either one of you ?
Life is much too hard to waste energy on taking offense at something as trivial as that, and even more, it's done with the best of intentions.
As I've said before, I'm not a Christian, but I am way above taking offense at something so trivial.



 
zander83 Posted: Sat Jan 24 23:12:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  to be quite honest i feel flattered when im in others prayers... its nice to know others are wishing you well. Now, even if your living the perfect life i still like to think others aren't wishing me ill. In one sense to be offended by being in someones prayer is very similar to being insulted when people use a variety of greetings, such as good day, good night, bless you, best of luck, break a leg... etc. Some will point out that it offends because they're not beleivers. Thats a different subject... i would also like to add that i'd be a bit freaked if some guy i didn't know said i was in his prayers... but for reasons having nothing to do with religion. Now i can understand peoples objections and i have to say there are less complicated ways of telling someone your thinking of them... such as "ill be thinking of you" but i guess that depends on the sort of environment you were brought up in.


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 24 23:57:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  We need some clarification plonks and plinks. It's one thing to be told you're being prayed for when you let someone know you're have difficulty with something in life, say, for example, a serious illness yourself, or with someone close to you. You let it be known and people who believe that their prayers will help ask God to help you through this hardship.

Trogdor does not really know any of you. He was not responding to a thread where someone was requesting help with a problem in their live. No specifics were given. It doesn't take a leap of faith to realize what he meant by "praying for us" was that he is praying that we will see the light and become followers of Christ. He has gotten an earful of our sinful ways here. As I have said before his intentions are well meaning, but to put it bluntly, his brand of Christianity states that we, us non-believers here, are lost souls and we're headed to hell unless we repent. That is what he means by stating that he's praying for us. He's not praying that hif gets over his headache, or that libra does well on her exam, or that mat_j quits drinking. He's praying for your souls folks. If he says anything other than that he's being dishonest.
Now that may still fine with some of you out there. It's not for me to say either way. But I thought it needed to be made clear just exactly what our GT newbie means when he says he'll be praying for you.


 
sweet p Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:09:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>He's praying for your souls folks. If he says anything other than that he's being dishonest.

Trogdor, is that true? Are you praying for our souls?

And Addi, do you think that maybe sometimes people do not understand why they are praying for people?
Though this gets onto a whole new topic, I find that when dealing with a religion and those who follow it, ESPECIALLY the younger ones, they do not always know why they do the things they do.

When I was a little girl, before going to sleep, my grandma would tuck me in and tell me to pray...pray to god to keep my sisters safe, my parents healthy, my friends happy...
I thought that if I prayed, it was like one more voice in the crowd and made the chances of god hearing my family's and friends' prayers greater. I didn't think that my sisters would not be safe and my parents unhealthy without my prayers, but it showed my concern, my hoping that nothing bad would happen to them. I would go on for several minutes, addressing every person I could possibly think of...my dogs, my teachers, even the neighbour 10 doors down whom I had never spoken to but seen shoveling the driveway. But I was young, I didn't ask the questions I ask today, and to me, praying meant listing the people you wanted to keep out of harm.

So maybe Trogdor doesn't know us, and maybe none of us needs praying for. But maybe he "met" a few people from around the world on this forum and wanted to show us he's no bad guy, trying to convert our ways, just wanting friends and doing something nice, the only way he knows how...

But then again, this is just ol P trying to see the good in things...I dunno.

In any case, I am quite indifferent towards people who try and pray for me. Though I see no definite point to it, I also see no harm in it at all.


 
marsteller Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:18:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor ... fuck that guy


 
simonvii Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:20:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >When I was a little girl, before going to sleep, my grandma would tuck me in and tell me to pray...pray to god to keep my sisters safe, my parents healthy, my friends happy...
>I thought that if I prayed, it was like one more voice in the crowd and made the chances of god hearing my family's and friends' prayers greater. I didn't think that my sisters would not be safe and my parents unhealthy without my prayers, but it showed my concern, my hoping that nothing bad would happen to them. I would go on for several minutes, addressing every person I could possibly think of...my dogs, my teachers, even the neighbour 10 doors down whom I had never spoken to but seen shoveling the driveway. But I was young, I didn't ask the questions I ask today, and to me, praying meant listing the people you wanted to keep out of harm.
>
>So maybe Trogdor doesn't know us, and maybe none of us needs praying for. But maybe he "met" a few people from around the world on this forum and wanted to show us he's no bad guy, trying to convert our ways, just wanting friends and doing something nice, the only way he knows how...
>

this is the nicest, most well-thought-out sincerely honest posting i may ever have read...thanks...


 
simonvii Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:21:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.

i dont believe theres such things as lost causes :)


 
simonvii Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:23:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  (that last post was in reply to libra)


 
libra Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:30:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
>I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.
>
>i dont believe theres such things as lost causes :)

I'm a lost cause in the whole trying to show me the light, or be 'saved' or whatever kind of thing. I don't mean in life in general, i'm actually doing very well.


 
Kira Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:37:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've been mulling over this subject for too long, and it's late, and I still can't clarify it for myself.

Recently Trogdor backed off the Christianity issue a bit. He has "stepped off his soapbox," and I respect him for seeing he does not yet have all he needs to win his argument (something I have never been good at). But now, he's praying for us.

It's like he's said, "let's agree to disagree," but as soon as we turn our backs he's continuing the argument under his breath. He's just leaving us out of it.

I do believe he's praying for us to "see the light," as Addison has stated. And I am one of the ones who is upset by it.

I almost think it's a petty feeling, though, like jealousy or pride, which in most situations must simply be "gotten over." I have to deal with such feelings on my own, since they're not the result of anyone else's wrongdoing. But religion is such a profound thing for those who have it, and for those who don't, that too is usually a profound choice--it is for me. It doesn't seem right to pretend to accept someone else's belief, when in fact you don't.


 
Kira Posted: Sun Jan 25 01:40:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think I think too much. Six posts while I was typing that out, haha.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 05:49:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm not trying to continue the argument, I'm just curious and wanted to know why. Jeez, you people can be annoying. ^_^


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Jan 25 05:51:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>I'm not trying to continue the argument, I'm just curious and wanted to know why. Jeez, you people can be annoying. ^_^

Why thank you


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 05:53:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>I'm not trying to continue the argument, I'm just curious and wanted to know why. Jeez, you people can be annoying. ^_^
>
> Why thank you

huh?


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Jan 25 05:56:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>meshuggah said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>I'm not trying to continue the argument, I'm just curious and wanted to know why. Jeez, you people can be annoying. ^_^
>>
>> Why thank you
>
>huh?



Oh dont mind me :)


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 05:57:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>meshuggah said:
>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>I'm not trying to continue the argument, I'm just curious and wanted to know why. Jeez, you people can be annoying. ^_^
>>>
>>> Why thank you
>>
>>huh?
>
>
>
>Oh dont mind me :)

Okie-day...


 
antartica Posted: Sun Jan 25 07:06:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Because some people don't believe in it and see it as offencive that you think you need to save/help them by prayer or they don't want to be a part of your illusion.

AMEN!
(pun intended)


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 08:28:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>
>Trogdor, is that true? Are you praying for our souls?
>
>And Addi, do you think that maybe sometimes people do not understand why they are praying for people?

>
>When I was a little girl, before going to sleep, my grandma would tuck me in and tell me to pray...pray to god to keep my sisters safe, my parents healthy, my friends happy...

Responses like this are why I like you, even though we've never met.
I used to pray the same way when I was very young. When my father was still living at home he would have all us kids kneel at our beds before crawling in and say the kind of prayers you were remembering...
"Gog bless mom, and Dad, and aunt Susie, and our dog Sargent..."

Trog is not 6 years old. He is not kneeling at his bed, hands folded, eyes closed saying..."and god bless sweet p, and antartica, and sailovzi, and..."
He is praying that god will turn our hearts, that god will give him the right words to type when he responds to us. I know. I've been there. That's why after I posted yesterday he didn't come back with a specific response to it. He knows he is praying for our souls, and to type anything different would be a lie in the eyes of jesus.
I don't have any problem with him praying for me that way. If he feels the need to then it's no skin off my back. It doesn't affect how my day goes (or does it? lol). I just felt my buds here should know what Trogdor means when he says he's praying for us since there seemed to be some confusion about it.





 
marsi Posted: Sun Jan 25 09:48:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Maybe it's time for trogdor to clarify what he meant by praying for us.

I have a question for all of you who think he shouldn't do it and are offended by it. Do you believe in the power of prayer? Do you really think he can change you or how you feel about religion and god just saying a few prayers?
If you don't believe in the power of prayer what is going to change. I don't think he meant it to harm you in any way. I could understand if you said, don't waste your time. Because, if you don't belive in prayers that's the only result. Trogdor wasting his time praying for you, instead of doing something more productive.

I understood what trogdor said like SweetP said praying meant listing the people you wanted to keep out of harm.
Would you be offended if instead of praying trogdor said he wishes us all to be happy and well from the bottom of his heart.

I hope you won't misunderstood me. I wish you all to be happy and well from the bottom of my heart


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Jan 25 09:49:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If you don't believe you have a soul, how can you be offended by someone praying for it ?


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 10:21:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>If you don't believe you have a soul, how can you be offended by someone praying for it ?

Hey, shouldn't you be at church this morning praying for me?

addi's nightly prayer:
"...and God, help hif to see that Jesus was a liberal when he walked the earth, and that Bush is the anti-christ, posing as an angel of light."


 
novemberrain Posted: Sun Jan 25 10:45:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>Hey, shouldn't you be at church this morning praying for me?
>
>addi's nightly prayer:
>"...and God, help hif to see that Jesus was a liberal when he walked the earth, and that Bush is the anti-christ, posing as an angel of light."

lol. nice, addi. very nice.


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 11:02:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:

>lol. nice, addi. very nice.

: )

I'm a baaaad boy!

*and put in a different pic so I can include you in my series. I can't do anything with the design you're using


 
novemberrain Posted: Sun Jan 25 11:44:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>
>: )
>
>I'm a baaaad boy!
>
>*and put in a different pic so I can include you in my series. I can't do anything with the design you're using

what kind or type of pic do you want? let me know and I will do my best to find one


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sun Jan 25 11:54:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Prayer is a nice sentiment.
And I don't mean to be "hostile" like you said in the last thread, but to me it seems like you want praised for doing so. I may be wrong, but such is my perception.



 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 11:58:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:

>what kind or type of pic do you want? let me know and I will do my best to find one

I should have said "please". That was kinda rude and pushy. Sorry.

Use anything you want. If I'm really creative I should be able to use anything you guys put up (except animated gifs). I'll try to think of something with the one you have. I'm having the same problem with chanz and a few others as well.


 
novemberrain Posted: Sun Jan 25 12:14:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>I should have said "please". That was kinda rude and pushy. Sorry.
>
>Use anything you want. If I'm really creative I should be able to use anything you guys put up (except animated gifs). I'll try to think of something with the one you have. I'm having the same problem with chanz and a few others as well.

There ya go. Hope that helped. And I didn't think you were rude or pushy at all.


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 13:20:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:

>There ya go. Hope that helped. And I didn't think you were rude or pushy at all.

Don't know if it's just me, but nothings showing up : (


 
sweet p Posted: Sun Jan 25 13:27:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Responses like this are why I like you, even though we've never met.

:)

>That's why after I posted yesterday he didn't come back with a specific response to it. He knows he is praying for our souls, and to type anything different would be a lie in the eyes of jesus.

Yes, I realised he did not clarify for me, nor did he refute your post. I would've appreciated a response to that...at least some honest explanation to help us understand his intention.



Anyway, Trogdor, if you are reading this...I don't see why you are annoyed by the answers you got. You asked why people are offended. So you must've known you'd be dealing with offended people...who tend NOT to agree with those who offend them...
I think you gotta start rethinking what you are expecting to happen in these threads.


 
novemberrain Posted: Sun Jan 25 13:39:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>Don't know if it's just me, but nothings showing up : (

hmmm...it's showing up for me. but if it makes you feel any better, simonvii's pic isn't showing up on my comp. yay technology.


 
libra Posted: Sun Jan 25 13:59:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:
>addison said:
>
>>Don't know if it's just me, but nothings showing up : (
>
>hmmm...it's showing up for me. but if it makes you feel any better, simonvii's pic isn't showing up on my comp. yay technology.

his isn't showing up on mine, either, but yours is, Novrain.


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 25 14:01:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:

>hmmm...it's showing up for me. but if it makes you feel any better, simonvii's pic isn't showing up on my comp. yay technology.

Got it now. Is that one them flying mooses?


 
novemberrain Posted: Sun Jan 25 15:22:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>Got it now. Is that one them flying mooses?

hehe. no, it's a gryphon.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 21:33:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  SntSaturn said:
>Prayer is a nice sentiment.
>And I don't mean to be "hostile" like you said in the last thread, but to me it seems like you want praised for doing so. I may be wrong, but such is my perception.

Honestly, no, I'm not doing it for praise. If anyone will recall besides me, I didn't want to proclaim it to the nations, but when it was, and people were getting offended, I was curious as to why.

PS: I am in fact praying for your spirits (not souls, that's the mind. Spirit is what god gave us that goes to heaven.) However, as I've said before, I never wish bad tidings on people, and that is usually one of the things I pray for, though not the top of my list. Sorry if that sounds a little offensive, but it's true.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 21:37:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Yea, it's a bit offensive to me. One because it does make it seem like you think there's something wrong with me/us. And two, it makes it seem like you think you have this power to attempt to 'save me' or make me a better person or whatever, and that's MY choice. It feels condescending.
>
>And I don't believe in it, and god would probably hate me if he/she is really there, and so he'd/she'd probably get mad at you for bringing me up. I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.

Not at all, God doesn't hate anyone being brought up. He's the ultimate forgiver.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Jan 25 21:39:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>addison said:
>>Responses like this are why I like you, even though we've never met.
>
>:)
>
>>That's why after I posted yesterday he didn't come back with a specific response to it. He knows he is praying for our souls, and to type anything different would be a lie in the eyes of jesus.
>
>Yes, I realised he did not clarify for me, nor did he refute your post. I would've appreciated a response to that...at least some honest explanation to help us understand his intention.
>
>
>
>Anyway, Trogdor, if you are reading this...I don't see why you are annoyed by the answers you got. You asked why people are offended. So you must've known you'd be dealing with offended people...who tend NOT to agree with those who offend them...
>I think you gotta start rethinking what you are expecting to happen in these threads.

I'm not annoyed. (not anymore, anyway.) I was just curious as to why everyone seems upset as soon as the thought of someone talking about them to God... or something. This is just my own observation. OH, well.


 
antartica Posted: Mon Jan 26 00:32:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i not too sure about people praying for me now... most times the friends see me its like

"Jay-suz Ke-reist, you drinking again?"

"Oh God... can you ever stop smoking for 5 minutes"

"Good Lord.. that's your 8th cuppa coffee today!"

*scratches head*....


 
webmaster Posted: Mon Jan 26 02:28:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>libra said:
>>And I don't believe in it, and god would probably hate me if he/she is really there, and so he'd/she'd probably get mad at you for bringing me up. I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.
>
>Not at all, God doesn't hate anyone being brought up. He's the ultimate forgiver.

But there was nothing to forgive in the first place. He made it so that there was. Aye?


 
libra Posted: Mon Jan 26 02:31:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>libra said:
>>>And I don't believe in it, and god would probably hate me if he/she is really there, and so he'd/she'd probably get mad at you for bringing me up. I'm a lost cause, there's no point in trying.
>>
>>Not at all, God doesn't hate anyone being brought up. He's the ultimate forgiver.
>
>But there was nothing to forgive in the first place. He made it so that there was. Aye?

I never thought about it that way...he's like the ultimate form of government(dictatorship).


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Jan 26 02:33:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:

>I never thought about it that way...he's like the ultimate form of government(dictatorship).



I like dictators. I hope to be one someday.


 
mat_j Posted: Mon Feb 2 07:28:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >He's not praying that hif gets over his headache, or that libra does well on her exam, or that mat_j quits drinking


You'll have to take the bottle from my cold dead hands!


 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 2 08:08:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:

>You'll have to take the bottle from my cold dead hands!
LOL!
Funeral director to the embalmer:

...and pry that #$@*&<% bottle of scotch whiskey from his cold dead hands.


 



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