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my bloody college
beetlebum Posted: Wed Jan 28 23:32:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I don't post on here often (hardly ever) but I just wanted to get something off of my chest, and unfortunately, things have become so heated at my school that talking with anyone is exhausting.
I go to a liberal arts college with a "Baptist heritage", which means that while the school has its roots in the Southern Baptist religion, we are not a member of the Southern Baptist or Missouri Baptist Convention. Blah. Anyways, the campus is evenly divided between ultraconservative middle-class white Christians and fairly liberal middle-class white Christians. Before you criticize my choice in college, realize that I'm an idiot and I didn't know how repressive this place is and how disgusted I would be with it.
Shit. To the point: Our student body recently voted on an amendment to include "sexual orientation" in our anti-discrimination clause in out Student Bill of Rights. The amendment lost by 13 votes, and I'm rather angry and distraught over it, because I go to a school that is supposedly Christian, which should mean loving and accepting, and there's more hate on this campus than anywhere else I've ever been.
In any case, I'm just so sick of the debate because I cannot see why anyone, even if they did view homosexuality as a sin, would condone discrimination or conditions that would cause anyone to live in fear.
I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how I should argue the matter, because the Bible is always thrown in my face as the ultimate truth when speaking with these ignorant (well, in my opinion, anyway) people. I just don't want to believe that the cause isn't worth the fight, especially since I know a gay person on campus who won't come out of the closet for fear of death threats, etc. It just breaks my heart.
Okay. Thanks for letting me vent. I appreciate your time!
Take care, everyone. :)


 
Aeon Posted: Wed Jan 28 23:51:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Actually in the Bible it doesn't say that homosexuality is wrong. That's a mistranslation from the greek which says that Man shall not lie with a child or something like that. I just know that it doesn't REALLY say homosexuals are bad.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Jan 29 02:52:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok, I don't know anything about a mistranslation, but I have read passages in the Bible where it says explicitly that homosexuality is worng.

Personally, I think that homosexuality is morally wrong. That does'nt mean we should not love gay people. Take an extreme example of a murderer: you would not accept what he does as right, accept him into society as he is, and encourage him to live as he wants. But, as a person, you would love him (or at least a "good" Christian should). I would not condone gayness, or just 'accept the person as they are'. But I would not throw stones at a gay person either.

Just my 2 cents... I'd like to know what you think beetlebum.



 
choke Posted: Thu Jan 29 02:57:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i love gay people!!


 
antartica Posted: Thu Jan 29 03:03:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  choke said:
>i love gay people!!

Gay = Happy right?


 
choke Posted: Thu Jan 29 03:50:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  antartica said:
>choke said:
>>i love gay people!!
>
>Gay = Happy right?

lol no, perpetually happy people make me sick :P I love homosexuals :D except not in a grotty way!


 
antartica Posted: Thu Jan 29 03:54:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  choke said:
>antartica said:
>>choke said:
>>>i love gay people!!
>>
>>Gay = Happy right?
>
>lol no, perpetually happy people make me sick :P I love homosexuals :D except not in a grotty way!

HAHA
i know what ya mean... i know some people who are perpetually like

"Oh Joy!!! i've got a blue bird on my shoulder, zip-pa-dee-doo-dah!"


but me and the mates are like...

"Yeah right. blue bird, shmlue bird... the fucking thing just doo-dooed on my shoulder"

and yes... some of the nicest people i've never known in my life are gay and cross dressers...

wierd i know. but some how these people seem more "human" than some straights....



 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 29 03:56:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>Actually in the Bible it doesn't say that homosexuality is wrong. That's a mistranslation from the greek which says that Man shall not lie with a child or something like that. I just know that it doesn't REALLY say homosexuals are bad.

the bible just states that do not have sexual relations other than the normal. (or something like that)

looking at ancient civilisations... homosexuality was the norm. greeks, romans, etc all practiced it.

the current bible have a lot of meanings lost in translation. and remember... everything in the new testament has nothing from Jesus. everything was just heresay and then written by the scribes.


 
sweet p Posted: Thu Jan 29 04:15:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Ok, I don't know anything about a mistranslation, but I have read passages in the Bible where it says explicitly that homosexuality is worng.
>
>Personally, I think that homosexuality is morally wrong. That does'nt mean we should not love gay people. Take an extreme example of a murderer: you would not accept what he does as right, accept him into society as he is, and encourage him to live as he wants. But, as a person, you would love him (or at least a "good" Christian should). I would not condone gayness, or just 'accept the person as they are'. But I would not throw stones at a gay person either.
>
>Just my 2 cents... I'd like to know what you think beetlebum.
>

Please do not, by any means, take this as a denunciation but I am curious to know...
How can you love [show love to] someone but not accept them as they are? I ask only because I never thought of refraining from throwing stones at someone as an act of love.


*****
my thoughts on the topic:

I think that with most things, you have 4 responses to chose from:
intolerance, tolerance, acceptance, and agreement.

People are often too afraid to ACCEPT a person whose beliefs differ significantly and/or even oppose their own, from fear that this shows that they are AGREEING with the other's beliefs.

I suppose it's a display of fearing what others may think of them. When I get to this point, I can understand...because we are human and we all worry about that at one point or another. But I begin to not understand all over again when I see parents throwing their own children into the streets and forever out of their lives. I do a double take when I see friends turning their backs on friends because of something they learned in church or at home or in a book.

For god's sake, even jesus ate dinner with tax collectors. Sure he was likely trying to sway their ways, but he was not afraid to be seen with them, befriend them and even have parties with them. If I remember correctly, I think he even made one of them one of his lovely 12 accomplices.


I just don't get it.
But it's late. Maybe I'm just overly tired.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Jan 29 05:16:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>How can you love [show love to] someone but not accept them as they are? I ask only because I never thought of refraining from throwing stones at someone as an act of love.

LOL... yeah. I see what you're saying. What I meant was that I would not treat a gay person any differently than anyone else because they were gay.

You make some good points with the rest of your post.

It's just that, to me, accepting someone for what they are, seems like you're saying that you think what they are is ok. And for me, it's not ok.


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jan 29 06:27:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>It's just that, to me, accepting someone for what they are, seems like you're saying that you think what they are is ok. And for me, it's not ok.

My best friend has a similar opinion as you, Sheoul. It's alright with her that I happen to be bi, just as long as I don't hit on her. She accepts me for who I am as a whole. There is more to a person than just their sexual orientation.

She doesn't look down on me for it, nor does she feel she has to love me out of some religious obligation (love the sinner, not the sin).

Because hey, if you can show murderers some love...how bad can the gays be?


 
antartica Posted: Thu Jan 29 06:31:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:
>Because hey, if you can show murderers some love...how bad can the gays be?

i like that comment =)


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:09:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:

>It's alright with her that I happen to be bi,

This clears things up a bit for me. I was all confused on your post in the first kiss thread. : )

I wonder how many other plonkers and plinkers I'm getting confused over. One day we'll meet and I'll discover SweetP looks like Mesh, and Hif is a 27 year old playboy model.
_________________________________

Beetlebum
I graduated from a conservative Baptist liberal arts college. I know exactly what you're going through. It probably isn't what you want to hear, but the powers that be will not change their mind on the subject of homosexuality. As they see it the Bible clearly states it is wrong (translation interpretation is a discussion for another time). A literal interpretation of the bible is the cornerstone in the foundation of their faith. If they accept gays it threatens their entire belief structure. So it just won't happen. A history prof at my college happened to say something during one of his class lectures that could have been interpreted as a half hearted support of gays. It caused such a furor in the school amoung the righteous that he was fired.
My advise is just to hang in there and try to make the best of a bad situation. Try to look at people's hearts and not their sexual orientation, and definately keep questioning what is right. It seems to me you're already on the right path.




 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:11:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  (Oh no, he's on his soapbox again....)

Well, not exactly. See, you can actually look at in a scientific light. Think about it. Men have one... um.... piece. Women have another. It takes both of them to make a baby. Not two men. Not two women. If you look in the bible, God declares it a sin, because it is a scientific impossibility for two of the same sex to have a baby. However, you're right. That's not the way you should act. You should still accept whoever want to go to your school. I believe you should do something about it, though. Talk to, y'know, whoever. Give them this little speal here.
Trog, out.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:12:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>novrain said:
>
>>It's alright with her that I happen to be bi,
>
>This clears things up a bit for me. I was all confused on your post in the first kiss thread. : )
>
>I wonder how many other plonkers and plinkers I'm getting confused over. One day we'll meet and I'll discover SweetP looks like Mesh, and Hif is a 27 year old playboy model.
>_________________________________
>
>Beetlebum
>I graduated from a conservative Baptist liberal arts college. I know exactly what you're going through. It probably isn't what you want to hear, but the powers that be will not change their mind on the subject of homosexuality. As they see it the Bible clearly states it is wrong (translation interpretation is a discussion for another time). A literal interpretation of the bible is the cornerstone in the foundation of their faith. If they accept gays it threatens their entire belief structure. So it just won't happen. A history prof at my college happened to say something during one of his class lectures that could have been interpreted as a half hearted support of gays. It caused such a furor in the school amoung the righteous that he was fired.
>My advise is just to hang in there and try to make the best of a bad situation. Try to look at people's hearts and not their sexual orientation, and definately keep questioning what is right. It seems to me you're already on the right path.


Right on! I agree. Sounds like you've got the right idea to me too. ^_^


 
sweet p Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:41:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>novrain said:
>
>>It's alright with her that I happen to be bi,
>
>This clears things up a bit for me. I was all confused on your post in the first kiss thread. : )

heh me too.


>I wonder how many other plonkers and plinkers I'm getting confused over. One day we'll meet and I'll discover SweetP looks like Mesh, and Hif is a 27 year old playboy model.

I don't think I know what Mesh looks like...maybe we ARE twins.


 
sweet p Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:43:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:

>LOL... yeah. I see what you're saying. What I meant was that I would not treat a gay person any differently than anyone else because they were gay.


Alright, I hear ya.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Jan 29 07:57:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum your back !
cool, stick around and post for awhile, you've been missed.

As for your problem, it's been my experience that a lot of Baptists can be hateful, self-righteous and judgemental. Not as individuals but collectively. Of course they have a right to feel this way, since they are the only ones with all the answers.
Roll with the punches, get your degree, and soon you'll be flipping them off, while riding off into the sunset.


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 08:00:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>I don't think I know what Mesh looks like...maybe we ARE twins.

LOL!

God knows I like mesh, but for your sake I hope not. You'd have to spend 3 hours every morning shaving all the hair off your body : )


 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Jan 29 09:31:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>beetlebum your back !
>cool, stick around and post for awhile, you've been missed.
>
>As for your problem, it's been my experience that a lot of Baptists can be hateful, self-righteous and judgemental.

No kidding. Not all, but quite a few. Thanks, ifihadahifi, you always make me feel better. And one semester to go, and then off to bigger and bettter things (I hope!).



 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Jan 29 09:43:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>Personally, I think that homosexuality is morally wrong. That does'nt mean we should not love gay people...
I would not condone gayness, or just 'accept the person as they are'. But I would not throw stones at a gay person either.
>
>Just my 2 cents... I'd like to know what you think beetlebum.

I actually appreciate this view, because there will always be things about other people that we have a hard time reconciling with ourselves or our world view, but like you pointed out, that doesn't mean we can treat those people poorly. After all, they are human, and even in a Baptist's eyes, no sin is greater/worse than another, so homosexuality should not be treated as any worse than pre-marital sex.
Personally, I believe in God, but I do not accept the Bible literally. If I did, I would have to condemn blended fabrics. (Any Bible buffs know that verse? I mean, why do people choose one verse as important but then ignore others?) The Bible was once used against the fight for African-American rights. I do feel this is similar case, because I see nothing wrong with homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. However, I would much rather have a campus filled with people like you, who recognize the inherent worth of a human being over whatever their sin(s) is/are, than to face people who are huge hypocrites and believe that protecting homosexuals translates to a statement of support for their lifestyle.
So, no, I don't think homosexuality is a sin. But I am trying hard to see why others do. In the end, I just want everyone on our campus treated with kindness and respect, regardless of their religious beliefs or personal lifestyle.
That's my 2 cents and I'm stickin' to it. Thanks for reading.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:21:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>So, no, I don't think homosexuality is a sin. But I am trying hard to see why others do. >

"Because everybody needs somebody to look down on" - Kris Kristofferson from Jesus was a Capricorn


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:24:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
But I am trying hard to see why others do. In the end, I just want everyone on our campus treated with kindness and respect, regardless of their religious beliefs or personal lifestyle.
>That's my 2 cents and I'm stickin' to it. Thanks for reading.
>

the world needs more people like you, beetlebum.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:30:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Ok, I don't know anything about a mistranslation, but I have read passages in the Bible where it says explicitly that homosexuality is worng.
>
>Personally, I think that homosexuality is morally wrong. That does'nt mean we should not love gay people. Take an extreme example of a murderer: you would not accept what he does as right, accept him into society as he is, and encourage him to live as he wants. But, as a person, you would love him (or at least a "good" Christian should). I would not condone gayness, or just 'accept the person as they are'. But I would not throw stones at a gay person either.
>
>Just my 2 cents... I'd like to know what you think beetlebum.
>

How the fuck can you say that being gay is morally wrong?

Did you chose to be a heterosexual?


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:35:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  People should really stop being such homophobes.

If you're secure about your own sexuality why be afraid of somebody else's?

Why do they refuse to accept gay people? Out of fear that they'll be tempted to become gay as well?


That's just like saying I don't like people with blue eyes.




By the way, I have nothing against gay people but I do get agitated by gay guys acting like 13 year old girls on happy pills.


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:37:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Did you chose to be a heterosexual?

Don't know about Belgium, but here in America babies are given that choice on their 1st birthday.
A pink and blue rattle are placed in front of them. If it's a boy baby and he chooses the pink one he's gay. Advanced societies know it has absolutely nothing to do with genetics.


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:40:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain grabbed both of them : )


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jan 29 10:52:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>novrain grabbed both of them : )

damn right I did :):)


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 11:00:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  novrain said:
>addison said:
>>novrain grabbed both of them : )
>
>damn right I did :):)

LOL! you go girl!

My folks couldn't afford rattles so they put a stuffed sheep in front of me.


 
marsi Posted: Thu Jan 29 11:40:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>A pink and blue rattle are placed in front of them. If it's a boy baby and he chooses the pink one he's gay. Advanced societies know it has absolutely nothing to do with genetics.

Ha, ha, ha...


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 29 11:47:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>novrain said:
>>addison said:
>>>novrain grabbed both of them : )
>>
>>damn right I did :):)
>
>LOL! you go girl!
>
>My folks couldn't afford rattles so they put a stuffed sheep in front of me.


I got a "party sheep".

Had to stuff it myself.


 
marsi Posted: Thu Jan 29 11:55:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
beetlebum tell them to read the story about pharises. And the one who is without sin cast the first stone - or something like that.
That is one of the reasons I got out of the organized religion. Preach love, saying you should love your enemies - and on the other hand so much hatred.



 
socialyD Posted: Thu Jan 29 13:16:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  They're gonna throw the bible at you so throw it back at them.

The only biblical backup they have is in the old testimate in one verse, that according to greek scholars may have been mistranslated.

>Remind them that christains do not live under the old testmate rules. Christ death was the remedy for that.

>My grandmother favorite saying is Love the sinner, hate the sin. Jesus is the perfect example of how one should treat others that are "sinners", he saved the adultress from death. - You who sins not cast the first stone.

>Remind them the issue is not homosexuality, it is discrimination. There is no where in the bible that says it's okay to discrimnate. Jesus and the children, or how about his distain for the pharisies.

>To hate is to kill a man in your heart - paraphrased from the words of Paul (the disciple). Thou shall not kill is in the top ten I believe.

>God greatest comandment is love thy neighbor as thy self. - I believe it was the big cheese's son who said that one - Jesus

>The bible is filled with instances of love and understanding. Bring every single one of those up. Christains are supposed to strive to be more like Christ don't let them forget that.

>Then as I always say play diry. Make comparisons between the discrimation of southern state about integration to your issue. They are many similarities and they can't take the high ground when their standing in the swamp.
- on that note: check out your state discriminatory laws, they may be violating a state law. Also see if your state has a human right organization. Connact them and explain the situation they may have some proactive ideas such - as boycotts, legal action, and even some material that may help you in fight. But above all they'll provide support for you in your fight.

I fought this same battle at private boarding school. I evetually beat the system and they were leagaly forced to move to my side. HAHAHAHA


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Jan 29 13:40:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>By the way, I have nothing against gay people but I do get agitated by gay guys acting like 13 year old girls on happy pills.


Couldnt have said it better myself.


Though nowhere near all gay guys act like that, just the ones that do stand out so much.


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 16:10:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Definition of pathetic:

Addi goes to GT and opens this thread just to sit and watch mesh's penguins...over and over and over. And each time it's like the first time I saw it, and I laugh.
They're coming to take me away HaHa HoHo HeHe

"Bed goes up, bed goes down. Bed goes up, bed goes down, bed goes up..."
Homer Simpson


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Thu Jan 29 16:22:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>People should really stop being such homophobes.
>
>If you're secure about your own sexuality why be afraid of somebody else's?


Ok, first of all... everyone is entitled to their opinions, everyone can think they way s/he wants to. Calling people who don't think homosexuality is right a homophobe is a personal attack on their beliefs. I, am in fact a very tolerant person in many areas, one of them being homosexuality. I lived with a gaggle of lesibans in my apartment complex when i was at college, they are some of the coolest, bestest friends i have ever had. But! i still think that everyone has a right to think their own way. I personally hate communists. but, because i hate communitsts, and think they are wrong, and i don't want to associate myself with them, does that make me a commuphobe?

As long as you don't interfere with others peoples lives... think/do as you please! but for chrissake dont' go around calling people names because they don't think the same as you.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 29 16:26:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So saying they are 'morally wrong' (whatever that might mean) isn't insulting them?


 
marsteller Posted: Thu Jan 29 16:31:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i think most gay people have a lot of screws loose inside their collective head....not just for the fact that they're gay, which i personally have no problems with, but because every gay person i have ever met, even the ones that seemed otherwise normal at first, turned out totally insane.


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 29 16:34:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>i think most gay people have a lot of screws loose inside their collective head....

Oh, Dear


 
*m*a*s* Posted: Thu Jan 29 17:21:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Last year I looked up the specific bible passages in the old testament (I think it was Leviticus) where it says homosexuality is "wrong". It also says in those passages that if a man sits in a chair where a woman who is on her period has sat, he'll be unclean until morning and have to bring two doves to be blessed and released by a priest. There's also something about sacrificing a goat, that one might have been for adultery, but I don't quite remember don't have a bible with me out at school. I'm not saying to attack people's faith, but if they throw that exact passage in yours, why not show them some of the more ridiculous passages. And I'm not saying that the bible is a bad book or that God's word it wrong, but the bible was written by a bunch of different men at a bunch of different times, all of these more than 2000 years ago, so it stands to reason some of the passage are simply outdated for today's society.


 
SntSaturn Posted: Thu Jan 29 17:41:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  the bible does say "judge not lest ye be judged."

Its not our place to say who is right. God will divine his justice in due time.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jan 29 17:48:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  SntSaturn said:
>the bible does say "judge not lest ye be judged."
>
>Its not our place to say who is right. God will divine his justice in due time.

Lol.

Ofcourse he will.


 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Jan 29 23:24:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thanks for the excellent posts. It's good to know I have a place to go where people are thoughtful and still manage to make me smile, as well.


 
sweet p Posted: Fri Jan 30 00:01:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>marsteller said:
>>i think most gay people have a lot of screws loose inside their collective head....
>
>Oh, Dear



hehe
"oh dear".
I thought of saying that too.


 
choke Posted: Fri Jan 30 04:14:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Definition of pathetic:
>
>Addi goes to GT and opens this thread just to sit and watch mesh's penguins...over and over and over. And each time it's like the first time I saw it, and I laugh.

dont worry.. i feel your pain. seriously! i think its one of the main highlights of life that we can get so much enjoyment out of watching something fall over. its like an instant pick me up :D


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Jan 30 06:11:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >
>How the fuck can you say that being gay is morally wrong?
>
>Did you chose to be a heterosexual?

Errr... I was born heterosexual, as is everyone.


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Jan 30 06:17:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meh.

Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.

Call me a homophobe if you want. I've been called worse. Does'nt make a difference to me.


 
antartica Posted: Fri Jan 30 06:22:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Meh.
>
>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.
>
>Call me a homophobe if you want. I've been called worse. Does'nt make a difference to me.

i used to be a homophobe... ok.

to be perfectly honest, when i was much younger, i did have a couple of rather traumatising incidents ok!

but after that when i was sailing there was a cross dressing assistant cook, and he/she whatever you call em... was reali nice and we could actually sit for hours having a decent conversation....




 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 30 07:46:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Meh.
>
>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.

My younger brother is gay. He is not the stereotypical "flame queen", and you'd have a very hard time telling he's gay if you ever met him. He's been living with his black partner for over ten years now. They adopted a child 3 years ago and are amazing parents.
He is not a freak. He is the President of a company, and by any standard a great citizen of the world.
I grew up with him Sheoul, he did NOT make the choice to be gay. It's a very hard road to walk, and only a fool would purposely choose to put up with the bias and discrimination he's had to deal with (not to mention the "FAG" taunting).
You speak from ignorance friend. Guys choosing to be gay is an ugly myth.

There are stupid gays out there doing harm to their "cause" by their public actions
There are stupid heterosexuals out there doing serious harm to others as well.
I'm not asking you to embrace them, or march in the local gay pride parade. Just try to keep an open mind, don't lump them all together, and try a little tolerance and understanding on for size.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Jan 30 07:53:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Sheoul said:
>>Meh.
>>
>>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.
>
>My younger brother is gay. He is not the stereotypical "flame queen", and you'd have a very hard time telling he's gay if you ever met him. He's been living with his black partner for over ten years now. They adopted a child 3 years ago and are amazing parents.
>He is not a freak. He is the President of a company, and by any standard a great citizen of the world.
>I grew up with him Sheoul, he did NOT make the choice to be gay. It's a very hard road to walk, and only a fool would purposely choose to put up with the bias and discrimination he's had to deal with (not to mention the "FAG" taunting).
>You speak from ignorance friend. Guys choosing to be gay is an ugly myth.
>
>There are stupid gays out there doing harm to their "cause" by their public actions
>There are stupid heterosexuals out there doing serious harm to others as well.
>I'm not asking you to embrace them, or march in the local gay pride parade. Just try to keep an open mind, don't lump them all together, and try a little tolerance and understanding on for size.

Don't waste your breath Addie, Sheoul is a closed-minded ignorant fool and the only thing that will help him see the light is the toughness of life. Maybe after a few years in the real world, he will see how ignorant he really is.


 
antartica Posted: Fri Jan 30 08:11:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.


i read that over and over and over again and i can onli summarise it into one word...

DISCRIMINATION...




 
novemberrain Posted: Fri Jan 30 12:48:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Don't waste your breath Addie, Sheoul is a closed-minded ignorant fool and the only thing that will help him see the light is the toughness of life. Maybe after a few years in the real world, he will see how ignorant he really is.

one can only hope


 
iggy Posted: Fri Jan 30 14:15:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Meh.
>
>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay.

noone was born ignorant and narrow minded too.

i just came back watching 'stuck on you'
and there's a scene where a couple called a person with a disability a freak.
so u go up to people and see if they're like ya and if they're not u call them a freak?

so u're one of those ain't ya? those that laugh at gay men. those that look at people with a disability and start staring at them... those that make fun of anything that's not normal to ya
calling people freaks and all?

guess what? u're a bigger freak. cos u're ignorant and intolerant of people.

u'll been called worse?

u haven't gotten the resistance salute yet...

so here it is fool.

......................//)
....................,/../
.................../..../
.............//'...'/`
........../'/.../..../......./
........('(.......... ~/'...')
..........................'.../
..........''............. _.
..........................(
...............................




 
trogdor57 Posted: Fri Jan 30 14:25:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well said!!!


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Jan 30 16:32:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Homosexuals exist, and its not a choice, plain and simple. Get over it.


I dont remember ever being presented with two opptions for a sexual preference. Being given time to think about it, weigh the differences, and then come to a decision that I want to be physically and emotionally attracted to women as opposed to men. No, my attraction to women is something that just happens, with no thought process or decisions made on my part.


And I am willing to bet its the same for gay people. Except for some as yet unknown reason, they are naturally attracted to the same sex instead of the opposite.


One of my good friend from my mid teen years, Absalon, was gay. Being gay was very much a bad thing there, and people were very, very cruel. He attempted suicide because he couldnt take it anymore. He wanted desperately to be "normal" and to like girls. He tried dating women. He even once had sex with a woman. After words he felt the way a straight man would feel after having sex with another man. Dirty, wrong, and ashamed. It is not a choice. And anyone who claims it is, can fuck off.


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 30 17:08:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hell hath no fury like ticked off GTers : )

Sheoul, I don't think anyone here would deny you your right to post what you think. I would have lasted about 2 weeks here if everyone thought the same. It's just that if you are going to write things like "Gays are freaks" you have to expect that some are going to differ with your opinion, and let you know about it.
If I posted this:
"all asians are freaks. They choose to be asian, they aren't born that way! society has encouraged people to be asian"
I would take on anyone here about my right to say that, HOWEVER I had better expect some strong responses to my statement, and better have some logical and reasoned arguements to back up that belief. With no defense I'd get my chestnuts roasted on an open fire faster than you could say queer eye for the straight guy. It's naive to think you can insult a whole group of people and not expect some kind of backlash. There's nothing wrong with examining your beliefs, and maybe questioning why you believe what you believe. When I first joined GT I thought all Asians were freaks. Now I know that my opinion was wrong. They're not freaks, they're just crazy. Keep the verdict open on gays until you've had more life experiences. : )



 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 30 17:40:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Actually, homosexuality is caused by an increased oestrogen flow to the foetus or decreased testosteron level.


The effect of this is that an area of the brain near the hypothalamus in a gay man is larger than a heterosexual man's, and comes close to that same part of a woman.


When you were in your mother's womb did you chose how much testosteron and oestrogen you got?


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Jan 30 17:44:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Actually, homosexuality is caused by an increased oestrogen flow to the foetus or decreased testosteron level.
>
>
>The effect of this is that an area of the brain near the hypothalamus in a gay man is larger than a heterosexual man's, and comes close to that same part of a woman.
>
>
>When you were in your mother's womb did you chose how much testosteron and oestrogen you got?


God knows I did......


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 30 18:07:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:

>>When you were in your mother's womb did you chose how much testosteron and oestrogen you got?
>
>
>God knows I did......

I'm in tears!! Damn it, Mesh, Stop it!!

Baby mesh inside mum's womb: "Keep going.. a little more..a little more..almost there..Okay, that's enough testosterone. Could we syphon out some of this estrogen now?"


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 31 07:42:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Well said!!!

Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?


 
dan632 Posted: Sat Jan 31 08:19:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Meh.
>
>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.
>
>Call me a homophobe if you want. I've been called worse. Does'nt make a difference to me.

OH GOD!! u make me so fucking angry from that post! so they are gay people in the world, deal with it or kill yourself coz there is nuthing stopping them from being that way. grow up! now stop posting stupid fucking posts like that, they are so pathetic and fucking imature. i swear to god, grow up or go some where else to throw your homophobic slandor, u make me so angry that i will gouge my own eyes with a garden fork just so i won't have to read your stupid crap!!


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 31 08:28:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  dan632 said:
>Sheoul said:
>>Meh.
>>
>>Heck, leave religion out of it. I think gays are freaks. And they're only freaks because they choose to be. Nobody is born gay. Society has made them believe that they are gay, and it's ok, even a good thing, to be gay.
>>
>>Call me a homophobe if you want. I've been called worse. Does'nt make a difference to me.
>
>OH GOD!! u make me so fucking angry from that post! so they are gay people in the world, deal with it or kill yourself coz there is nuthing stopping them from being that way. grow up! now stop posting stupid fucking posts like that, they are so pathetic and fucking imature. i swear to god, grow up or go some where else to throw your homophobic slandor, u make me so angry that i will gouge my own eyes with a garden fork just so i won't have to read your stupid crap!!

fuck ! godammit dan ! fucking stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel !


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 31 16:53:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Well said!!!
>
>Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?

In christianity, homosexuality is a sin. Like I said, one reason is that God gave men one sex organ, and women another is because he wants men and women together, not men and more men. And not women and more women. It follows the idea that sin is the equivilent of going against God's design. By deciding to become a homosexual, you have decided to go against the exact reason He has given you those organs. I'm not a homophobe, or a gay hater, or anything. I'll tolerate them, but I don't agree with it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 31 17:27:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>addison said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>Well said!!!
>>
>>Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?
>
>In christianity, homosexuality is a sin. Like I said, one reason is that God gave men one sex organ, and women another is because he wants men and women together, not men and more men. And not women and more women. It follows the idea that sin is the equivilent of going against God's design. By deciding to become a homosexual, you have decided to go against the exact reason He has given you those organs. I'm not a homophobe, or a gay hater, or anything. I'll tolerate them, but I don't agree with it.

Are you saying he gave us those organs for reproduction only and not for pleasure ? If that's so, then having sex for pleasure would be going against his wishes as well, would it not?
Also, when you use the term "in Christianity", you are lumping an awful lot of people together that have very different beliefs.
There are a lot of homosexuals that are Christians; where do you lump them ?
There are a lot of Christians that don't consider homosexuality a sin either.
Then again, there are a lot of Christians that consider birth control to be a sin.
You say god gave us those sex organs.
Who gave homosexuals the urge to be with their own sex? You have to know that if you are attracted to something, you have no choice about that. Then you must assume that god played a horrible mean trick on homosexuals don't you think?


 
addi Posted: Sat Jan 31 17:43:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Good questions hif. I think with Sheoul and Trogdor and others the whole biological issue throws a monkey wrench in their views. In order to deal with the question being gay HAS to be a personal choice, not a birth condition. Otherwise your points have to be dealt with and it puts mud on god's face (their view of god, that is).


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 31 18:46:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>addison said:
>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>Well said!!!
>>>
>>>Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?
>>
>>In christianity, homosexuality is a sin. Like I said, one reason is that God gave men one sex organ, and women another is because he wants men and women together, not men and more men. And not women and more women. It follows the idea that sin is the equivilent of going against God's design. By deciding to become a homosexual, you have decided to go against the exact reason He has given you those organs. I'm not a homophobe, or a gay hater, or anything. I'll tolerate them, but I don't agree with it.
>
>Are you saying he gave us those organs for reproduction only and not for pleasure ? If that's so, then having sex for pleasure would be going against his wishes as well, would it not?

In a way, yes. Sex is, in my opinion, mainly for the purpose of procreation (?) but I suppose you could say pleasure was just thrown in as a prompter. The problem is that it's like any drug, it's abused. And on the negative side, there's diseases, unwanted babies, etc.

>Also, when you use the term "in Christianity", you are lumping an awful lot of people together that have very different beliefs.
>There are a lot of homosexuals that are Christians; where do you lump them ?
>There are a lot of Christians that don't consider homosexuality a sin either.
>Then again, there are a lot of Christians that consider birth control to be a sin.

Sorry, "in my own bible study where we first discussed the issue." Didn't mean Christianity in general. As for christians that are gay, if they follow the main principle(believing in Christ) they're forgiven. I'm not saying that makes it OK.

>You say god gave us those sex organs.
>Who gave homosexuals the urge to be with their own sex? You have to know that if you are attracted to something, you have no choice about that. Then you must assume that god played a horrible mean trick on homosexuals don't you think?

No, I honestly believe it's not free choice. Someone was told all they're life that, just because they're a bit feminine, that they're gay. They believed it, bit by bit, until it becomes "the truth." I've heard cases that it can be "reversed." No one chooses to be gay. Society chooses for them.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Jan 31 19:21:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>>>>
>>Are you saying he gave us those organs for reproduction only and not for pleasure ? If that's so, then having sex for pleasure would be going against his wishes as well, would it not?
>
>In a way, yes. Sex is, in my opinion, mainly for the purpose of procreation (?) but I suppose you could say pleasure was just thrown in as a prompter. The problem is that it's like any drug, it's abused. And on the negative side, there's diseases, unwanted babies, etc.
>
In a way? What way would that be?
Do you believe birth control is a sin?
Do you believe the almost uncontrollable urge to have sex when you are young is merely a prompter for procreation? This is what we are genetically programmed to do.
At what point does it become abuse ?
More than twice a week ?

>>Also, when you use the term "in Christianity", you are lumping an awful lot of people together that have very different beliefs.
>>There are a lot of homosexuals that are Christians; where do you lump them ?
>>There are a lot of Christians that don't consider homosexuality a sin either.
>>Then again, there are a lot of Christians that consider birth control to be a sin.
>
>Sorry, "in my own bible study where we first discussed the issue." Didn't mean Christianity in general. As for christians that are gay, if they follow the main principle(believing in Christ) they're forgiven. I'm not saying that makes it OK.
>
Ok, I get it Christian serial killers are going to heaven too.
Hitler was a Christian you know.

>>You say god gave us those sex organs.
>>Who gave homosexuals the urge to be with their own sex? You have to know that if you are attracted to something, you have no choice about that. Then you must assume that god played a horrible mean trick on homosexuals don't you think?
>
>No, I honestly believe it's not free choice. Someone was told all they're life that, just because they're a bit feminine, that they're gay. They believed it, bit by bit, until it becomes "the truth." I've heard cases that it can be "reversed." No one chooses to be gay. Society chooses for them.

Yeah right, all gay men are feminine. Why don't you stereotype a little more?
And if enough people tell you you are gay, then you will start to get erections when attractive men walk by.
Will you listen to how ridiculous you sound ?
Just ask yourself what it might take for you to be sexually attracted to a man, I mean really ask yourself.
What would that answer be ?
When you are attracted to something in that way, it is not a choice you made, it is in your genetic make-up.
As for gay-to-straight reversals, I would be very skeptical without seeing it for myself. This is something that the church will say has happened, but I'll bet money they are dealing with bi-sexuals.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Jan 31 21:36:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>>>>
>>>Are you saying he gave us those organs for reproduction only and not for pleasure ? If that's so, then having sex for pleasure would be going against his wishes as well, would it not?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. God gave us teh ability to procreate, but didn't want it to be jsut blah or painful. So he made it pleasurable. The problem is that people take advantage of this. They overdo it, and have sex as often as possible.

>>In a way, yes. Sex is, in my opinion, mainly for the purpose of procreation (?) but I suppose you could say pleasure was just thrown in as a prompter. The problem is that it's like any drug, it's abused. And on the negative side, there's diseases, unwanted babies, etc.
>>
>In a way? What way would that be?
>Do you believe birth control is a sin?
>Do you believe the almost uncontrollable urge to have sex when you are young is merely a prompter for procreation? This is what we are genetically programmed to do.
>At what point does it become abuse ?
>More than twice a week ?

Like I said, it becomes abuse when you do it with anyone other than the one whom your planning to spend your life with. The problem is that they think that just because they're atracted, they need to have sex.

>>>Also, when you use the term "in Christianity", you are lumping an awful lot of people together that have very different beliefs.
>>>There are a lot of homosexuals that are Christians; where do you lump them ?
>>>There are a lot of Christians that don't consider homosexuality a sin either.
>>>Then again, there are a lot of Christians that consider birth control to be a sin.
>>
>>Sorry, "in my own bible study where we first discussed the issue." Didn't mean Christianity in general. As for christians that are gay, if they follow the main principle(believing in Christ) they're forgiven. I'm not saying that makes it OK.
>>
>Ok, I get it Christian serial killers are going to heaven too.
>Hitler was a Christian you know.

Don't pull that. Anyone who kills inocent people can say they're a christian, but I don't believe someone who believes that Jesus died to save us would be capable of that. It doesn't make sense. Saying you're a christian doesn't make you one.

>>>You say god gave us those sex organs.
>>>Who gave homosexuals the urge to be with their own sex? You have to know that if you are attracted to something, you have no choice about that. Then you must assume that god played a horrible mean trick on homosexuals don't you think?
>>
>>No, I honestly believe it's not free choice. Someone was told all they're life that, just because they're a bit feminine, that they're gay. They believed it, bit by bit, until it becomes "the truth." I've heard cases that it can be "reversed." No one chooses to be gay. Society chooses for them.
>
>Yeah right, all gay men are feminine. Why don't you stereotype a little more?

Not trying to stereotype, I'm giving an example. Here: SOME gay men were called gay because they acted feminine.

>And if enough people tell you you are gay, then you will start to get erections when attractive men walk by.
>Will you listen to how ridiculous you sound ?

I don't think it's that rediculous...

>Just ask yourself what it might take for you to be sexually attracted to a man, I mean really ask yourself.
>What would that answer be ?
>When you are attracted to something in that way, it is not a choice you made, it is in your genetic make-up.
>As for gay-to-straight reversals, I would be very skeptical without seeing it for myself. This is something that the church will say has happened, but I'll bet money they are dealing with bi-sexuals.

I honestly think it's something that can be controlled. If you don't agree, then we really can't argue anymore, because that's
how my arguments center.



 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 31 22:55:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If you say you can change people's sexual preferences, yours can be changed as well.

So if people will start telling you from now on that you're gay you will become one just because everybody else says so?

If you think you could change because of that that says 2 things about you:

1) you are extremely influancable (wouldn't be so farfetched from what you have said so far)
2) You are bisexual (so gay as well) but you're opressing it.

And what about the whole 'comming out' thing where nobody knew about it in the first place, who influenced them?


You have no clue about the stuff you're talking about.

You clearly don't have any knowledge about the (proven) biological mechanics behind it all but still you feel like you can say something insightful about it. This is not a pun on you but that's just the way it is.


Also, what's up with 'too much sex'?

Me and my gf have sex every time we see eachother and what's wrong with that? It's a sign of affection and it makes the hours fly by when you're bored lol and protection is always available everywhere.

You might not be able to handle it but don't think that because you can't nobody else can either.



I think jesus was gay by the way.

A lot of booze and 13 lonely feminin men (long hair and wearing robes) knowing they were going to die the next day...

Do I have to say more?


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 1 01:36:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So um, lemme get this straight here. You're telling me that, anyone could be convinced to no longer feel attracted to the opposite sex, AND THEN, on top of that, start to feel attracted to the same sex?


Well, maybe you could be convinced that you want big, , hairy, sweaty, men, with lint in their belly buttons and handlebar moustaches. And that you would rather play with weiners and man butts rather than boobies and woman butts.

But no amount of attempted convincing is going to make me want that instead of a five foot two, twenty something red haid, with nice average sized breasts, shoulder length, flowing hair, beautifl green eyes, a cute smile and a nice rear end, with a wonderful personality on top of all that.


 
choke Posted: Sun Feb 1 02:46:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>
>But no amount of attempted convincing is going to make me want that instead of a five foot two, twenty something red haid, with nice average sized breasts, shoulder length, flowing hair, beautifl green eyes, a cute smile and a nice rear end, with a wonderful personality on top of all that.

You want all that AND a personality? Dreams are free bubz.. :P


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 1 04:04:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  choke said:
>meshuggah said:
>>
>>But no amount of attempted convincing is going to make me want that instead of a five foot two, twenty something red haid, with nice average sized breasts, shoulder length, flowing hair, beautifl green eyes, a cute smile and a nice rear end, with a wonderful personality on top of all that.
>
>You want all that AND a personality? Dreams are free bubz.. :P


Thats my wife.


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 1 08:38:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Something tells me hif is going to pay you a visit


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 13:27:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>If you say you can change people's sexual preferences, yours can be changed as well.
>
>So if people will start telling you from now on that you're gay you will become one just because everybody else says so?

No, because I'm secure enough. Not everyone is. Some people get confused. It is made worse when someone begins calling them gay.

>If you think you could change because of that that says 2 things about you:
>
>1) you are extremely influancable (wouldn't be so farfetched from what you have said so far)
>2) You are bisexual (so gay as well) but you're opressing it.

Not touching that one with a thirty foot pole.

>And what about the whole 'comming out' thing where nobody knew about it in the first place, who influenced them?

Once again, a misunderstanding. I'm saying that if someone is called a gay, a small part of them may begin to believe it. Little by little, it grows. It could easily start with someone joking on that person. I'm not saying it applies to all gays, but some anyway.

>You have no clue about the stuff you're talking about.
>
>You clearly don't have any knowledge about the (proven) biological mechanics behind it all but still you feel like you can say something insightful about it. This is not a pun on you but that's just the way it is.

Perhaps, it's just how I feel.

>Also, what's up with 'too much sex'?
>
>Me and my gf have sex every time we see eachother and what's wrong with that? It's a sign of affection and it makes the hours fly by when you're bored lol and protection is always available everywhere.

>You might not be able to handle it but don't think that because you can't nobody else can either.

It's not that I can't handle it. I'm way too young, and besides, I believe you're not supposed to have sex until after marriage. It's supposed to be something to share with your partner. The one you're going to be with for the rest of your life.

>I think jesus was gay by the way.

>A lot of booze and 13 lonely feminin men (long hair and wearing robes) knowing they were going to die the next day...
>
>Do I have to say more?

Please, do.


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 1 13:48:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Let's just say I don't think "jebus" put many boundaries on the love thy fellow man thingy.


What does you feeling something have to do with actual proven scientific data?


You admitted you don't know shit about it so just shut up. You won't hear me telling you about quantum physics either.


Why does marriage make a relationship better than another one where the people involved aren't married? Most relationships end within 3 years after marriage by the way because people get the 'so this is it?' feeling.

Why can't you share sex unless you're married?

Marriage is just a piece of paper and some changes to how many taxes you have to pay.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 14:05:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Let's just say I don't think "jebus" put many boundaries on the love thy fellow man thingy.

>What does you feeling something have to do with actual proven scientific data?

>You admitted you don't know shit about it so just shut up. You won't hear me telling you about quantum physics either.

I didn't say that I don't know shit about it, I said I didn't know a lot, and part of it was bull.

>Why does marriage make a relationship better than another one where the people involved aren't married? Most relationships end within 3 years after marriage by the way because people get the 'so this is it?' feeling.

>Why can't you share sex unless you're married?

>Marriage is just a piece of paper and some changes to how many taxes you have to pay.

The point of dating is to find the person you want to be with for the rest of your life. Marriage is where those two people come together. To be with each other. They support each other through thick and thin. Marriage is not "just a piece of paper," It sybolizes the union of two people. Then, after marriage, and preparation, those two can procreate, and have a baby. Now, I relate this back to homosexuality. I think two guys can find... solace with each other, or become really good friends, but it was never supposed to be for men to go with men, or women go with women. God created woman to be man's companion(way back in genesis, if you want to be biblical)


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 1 14:51:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You don't believe in evolution?


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:05:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>You don't believe in evolution?

Uh, Oh! I smell a new can of worms about to be opened!

*worms with itty bitty legs and arms 8 (


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:09:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>You don't believe in evolution?

Why??


 
red Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:09:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i come back after a few weeks and my brain explodes.



 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:10:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>>You don't believe in evolution?
>
>Uh, Oh! I smell a new can of worms about to be opened!
>
>*worms with itty bitty legs and arms 8 (

Damn straight!!


 
iggy Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:37:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>addison said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>Well said!!!
>>
>>Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?
>
>In christianity, homosexuality is a sin.


so u're casting the first stone now ain;t ya?

as if u're not commiting any sin?

we are humans. we sin. live with it.




 
iggy Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:46:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Going to church does not make a person religious, nor does going to school make a person educated, any more than going to a garage makes a person a car. --Unknown

i would like to add another line to that.
going to church and sprouting all that holy shit does not make u more righteous than us.

if Jesus can hang out with the tax collectors, the unclean, the unwanted back then, why can't u be more tolerant of people?

u know, if Jesus came back and saw all these behaviour from u 'righteous' folk, he'd bitch slap u people back to yo mama's womb, just like the ruckus he started in the temple.





 
sweet p Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:46:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  UGH


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 1 15:52:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Christophe said:
>>You don't believe in evolution?
>
>Why??


You say you believe in genesis


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 16:23:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>Going to church does not make a person religious, nor does going to school make a person educated, any more than going to a garage makes a person a car. --Unknown
>
>i would like to add another line to that.
>going to church and sprouting all that holy shit does not make u more righteous than us.
>
>if Jesus can hang out with the tax collectors, the unclean, the unwanted back then, why can't u be more tolerant of people?
>
>u know, if Jesus came back and saw all these behaviour from u 'righteous' folk, he'd bitch slap u people back to yo mama's womb, just like the ruckus he started in the temple.
>
>
I'm not calling myself christian because I go to church. I've accepted Jesus as my savior. That's what makes you a christian. I'm not trying to be righteous, I'm trying to argue my point.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sun Feb 1 16:24:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>You don't believe in evolution?
>>
>>Why??
>
>
>You say you believe in genesis

Yes, but I also believe in evolution. It's possible that Adam and Eve were more homosapienish.


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 1 16:43:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Christophe said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>Christophe said:
>>>>You don't believe in evolution?
>>>
>>>Why??
>>
>>
>>You say you believe in genesis
>
>Yes, but I also believe in evolution. It's possible that Adam and Eve were more homosapienish.


What the fuck are you talking about?


You believe that homosapiens have evolved from apes and you believe in genesis...


How do you do that if you believe in the fact that women were created out of the rib of a man.


So the apes before that were magically reproducing gays?


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 1 17:18:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  red said:
>i come back after a few weeks and my brain explodes.
>


Wellcome back red!


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 1 17:25:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Let's just say I don't think "jebus" put many boundaries on the love thy fellow man thingy.
>
>
>What does you feeling something have to do with actual proven scientific data?
>
>
>You admitted you don't know shit about it so just shut up. You won't hear me telling you about quantum physics either.


Well lets first starte off with de Brogile Waves. From there we may move on to Blackbody Radiation, the photoelectric effect, compton scattering, wave-particle duality, the uncertainty priniple. and we will see where it all goes from there.


Now,In 1924 a young physicist, de Broglie, speculated that nature did not single out light as being the only matter which exhibits a wave-particle duality. He proposed that ordinary ``particles'' such as electrons, protons, or bowling balls could also exhibit wave characteristics in certain circumstances. Quantitatively, he associated a wavelength to a particle of mass m moving at speed v :
= . (10)


Since the momentum of such a particle is p = mv , mathematically this relation is equivalent to Eq.(27.8) for the momentum of a photon in Compton scattering. However, we should emphasize that these two equations have a very different physical content.

Tests of this hypothesis would involve demonstrating wave properties of matter at the wavelength given by Eq.(27.10). Relatively straightforward tests are offered by diffraction and interference - if a beam of such ``particles'' were shone at a diffraction grating and a diffraction pattern of a series of light and dark fringes results, then one would be forced to adopt the wave picture for this phenomena. We recall that for a good diffraction pattern to result the size of the diffraction slits should be of the same order as the wavelength of the light used. As we shall see in some examples later, for macroscopic objects such as bowling balls this would require sizes of slits of the order of 10- 34 m or so, which is much outside present-day technology. However, for electrons the sizes of slits required are of the order of 10- 11 m or so, which are readily available. Thus, it is possible to verify the wave nature of electrons in such diffraction experiments, and indeed this property is the principle behind the relatively common electron microscope. Therefore, Nature seems to be symmetric, in that light and ordinary ``particles'' exhibits this wave-particle duality.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Feb 1 17:59:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Christophe said:
>>Let's just say I don't think "jebus" put many boundaries on the love thy fellow man thingy.
>>
>>
>>What does you feeling something have to do with actual proven scientific data?
>>
>>
>>You admitted you don't know shit about it so just shut up. You won't hear me telling you about quantum physics either.
>
>
>Well lets first starte off with de Brogile Waves. From there we may move on to Blackbody Radiation, the photoelectric effect, compton scattering, wave-particle duality, the uncertainty priniple. and we will see where it all goes from there.
>
>
>Now,In 1924 a young physicist, de Broglie, speculated that nature did not single out light as being the only matter which exhibits a wave-particle duality. He proposed that ordinary ``particles'' such as electrons, protons, or bowling balls could also exhibit wave characteristics in certain circumstances. Quantitatively, he associated a wavelength to a particle of mass m moving at speed v :
> = . (10)
>
>
>Since the momentum of such a particle is p = mv , mathematically this relation is equivalent to Eq.(27.8) for the momentum of a photon in Compton scattering. However, we should emphasize that these two equations have a very different physical content.
>
>Tests of this hypothesis would involve demonstrating wave properties of matter at the wavelength given by Eq.(27.10). Relatively straightforward tests are offered by diffraction and interference - if a beam of such ``particles'' were shone at a diffraction grating and a diffraction pattern of a series of light and dark fringes results, then one would be forced to adopt the wave picture for this phenomena. We recall that for a good diffraction pattern to result the size of the diffraction slits should be of the same order as the wavelength of the light used. As we shall see in some examples later, for macroscopic objects such as bowling balls this would require sizes of slits of the order of 10- 34 m or so, which is much outside present-day technology. However, for electrons the sizes of slits required are of the order of 10- 11 m or so, which are readily available. Thus, it is possible to verify the wave nature of electrons in such diffraction experiments, and indeed this property is the principle behind the relatively common electron microscope. Therefore, Nature seems to be symmetric, in that light and ordinary ``particles'' exhibits this wave-particle duality.
>
Damn ! where is jenemmer when we really need her !


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Feb 2 07:15:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>Christophe said:
>>>>>You don't believe in evolution?
>>>>
>>>>Why??
>>>
>>>
>>>You say you believe in genesis
>>
>>Yes, but I also believe in evolution. It's possible that Adam and Eve were more homosapienish.


>What the fuck are you talking about?

Whoops, wrong word. If you read the Bible, it never says what adam and eve looked like, because it's a book of faith, not science. It's possible, on a percentage, that the first adam and eve were more monkey-like.

>You believe that homosapiens have evolved from apes and you believe in genesis...

Yes, yes I do.

>How do you do that if you believe in the fact that women were created out of the rib of a man.

Because it's God. To me(not everyone, of course) he can do anything.

>So the apes before that were magically reproducing gays?

Wait, what?


 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 2 07:32:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>So the apes before that were magically reproducing gays?

This sounds like a realy bad B adult movie plot.

Scene: Group of well groomed apes in the Cavern Club. Background music: "It's Raining Apes, Hallelujah!"

Ape 1: Wanna see my magic wand?

Ape 2: Is it magically delicious?


*this is going to be one of those where I wished I'd clicked on delete and not on post


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Feb 2 07:36:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>So the apes before that were magically reproducing gays?
>
>This sounds like a realy bad B adult movie plot.
>
>Scene: Group of well groomed apes in the Cavern Club. Background music: "It's Raining Apes, Hallelujah!"
>
>Ape 1: Wanna see my magic wand?
>
>Ape 2: Is it magically delicious?
>
>
>*this is going to be one of those where I wished I'd clicked on delete and not on post

Probably, but it's too late now!


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 2 10:17:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Christophe said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>Christophe said:
>>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>>Christophe said:
>>>>>>You don't believe in evolution?
>>>>>
>>>>>Why??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You say you believe in genesis
>>>
>>>Yes, but I also believe in evolution. It's possible that Adam and Eve were more homosapienish.
>
>
>>What the fuck are you talking about?
>
>Whoops, wrong word. If you read the Bible, it never says what adam and eve looked like, because it's a book of faith, not science. It's possible, on a percentage, that the first adam and eve were more monkey-like.
>
>>You believe that homosapiens have evolved from apes and you believe in genesis...
>
>Yes, yes I do.
>
>>How do you do that if you believe in the fact that women were created out of the rib of a man.
>
>Because it's God. To me(not everyone, of course) he can do anything.
>
>>So the apes before that were magically reproducing gays?
>
>Wait, what?



If adam and eve evolved from the apes how can that be if there were no women before eve was created out of adam who evolved out of apes while they couldn't evolve because to evolve you need reproduction, so women.

lol


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 2 10:18:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Yes, but I also believe in evolution. It's possible that Adam and Eve were more homosapienish.



So "god" told a couple of monkey's not to toutch his apples or they would be thrown out of paradise and everywthing would get fucked up from there?


Sounds like a set-up to me.


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 2 10:22:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Instead of throwing them out god should have spanked his monkey lol


Couldn't resist.


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Feb 2 12:32:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Dammit, I'm done with this. I got on my soapbox, hoping for a bit less resistance than last time, but no... Anyway, can't debate anymore. Look for me in other posts.

Tune in next time...
Till then, trog out ^_^


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 2 12:43:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>Dammit, I'm done with this. I got on my soapbox, hoping for a bit less resistance than last time, but no... Anyway, can't debate anymore. Look for me in other posts.
>
>Tune in next time...
>Till then, trog out ^_^


Do you agree that what you're saying doesn't make any sense?


 
trogdor57 Posted: Mon Feb 2 13:20:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  (Dangit, you try to leave with dignity...) Yes, I believe what I'm saying does make sense. Why couldn't adam and eve have been the first people, but at the same time, maybe not monkeys, but certainly simpler forms of that. Once they ate the fruit, and fell from grace, all sin was available to humans, homosexuality included.


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 2 13:38:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ah yes and how do you explain the fact that ppl can be traced back to early evolutions of apes?

So you say there was this one evolutionary stage selected by 'god' and what about the previous ones?


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Feb 2 17:11:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Damn ! where is jenemmer when we really need her !


And where the hell is christian for that matter? And savvode? hypocrite? Ahhh the list could keep going on and on.

Are you guys out there? We aint not forgot about yous guys!


 
antartica Posted: Tue Feb 3 09:01:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Damn ! where is jenemmer when we really need her !
>
>
>And where the hell is christian for that matter? And savvode? hypocrite? Ahhh the list could keep going on and on.
>
>Are you guys out there? We aint not forgot about yous guys!

YEAH!

we never leave a man (and girl) behind!



 
libra Posted: Tue Feb 3 12:44:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>(Dangit, you try to leave with dignity...) Yes, I believe what I'm saying does make sense. Why couldn't adam and eve have been the first people, but at the same time, maybe not monkeys, but certainly simpler forms of that. Once they ate the fruit, and fell from grace, all sin was available to humans, homosexuality included.

doesn't work...scientifically. Evolution doesn't work that way, its so incredibly slow that there weren't just two 'new' parts of the species at the snap of a finger. You're right that there were elementary levels between apes and humans...homo habilis, heidelbergensis, erectus, ergaster(my opinion is that we evolved from them), rudolfensis, etc. But they all evolved slowly and there wasn't a 'first' of each species, really, it was just a slow change over time...


 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Feb 3 12:46:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>(Dangit, you try to leave with dignity...) Yes, I believe what I'm saying does make sense. Why couldn't adam and eve have been the first people, but at the same time, maybe not monkeys, but certainly simpler forms of that. Once they ate the fruit, and fell from grace, all sin was available to humans, homosexuality included.
>
>doesn't work...scientifically. Evolution doesn't work that way, its so incredibly slow that there weren't just two 'new' parts of the species at the snap of a finger. You're right that there were elementary levels between apes and humans...homo habilis, heidelbergensis, erectus, ergaster(my opinion is that we evolved from them), rudolfensis, etc. But they all evolved slowly and there wasn't a 'first' of each species, really, it was just a slow change over time...

Not sure which part doesn't work.


 
libra Posted: Tue Feb 3 12:47:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>libra said:
>>trogdor57 said:
>>>(Dangit, you try to leave with dignity...) Yes, I believe what I'm saying does make sense. Why couldn't adam and eve have been the first people, but at the same time, maybe not monkeys, but certainly simpler forms of that. Once they ate the fruit, and fell from grace, all sin was available to humans, homosexuality included.
>>
>>doesn't work...scientifically. Evolution doesn't work that way, its so incredibly slow that there weren't just two 'new' parts of the species at the snap of a finger. You're right that there were elementary levels between apes and humans...homo habilis, heidelbergensis, erectus, ergaster(my opinion is that we evolved from them), rudolfensis, etc. But they all evolved slowly and there wasn't a 'first' of each species, really, it was just a slow change over time...
>
>Not sure which part doesn't work.

that adam and eve were the first two members of some species...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 3 13:11:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>libra said:
>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>(Dangit, you try to leave with dignity...) Yes, I believe what I'm saying does make sense. Why couldn't adam and eve have been the first people, but at the same time, maybe not monkeys, but certainly simpler forms of that. Once they ate the fruit, and fell from grace, all sin was available to humans, homosexuality included.
>>>
>>>doesn't work...scientifically. Evolution doesn't work that way, its so incredibly slow that there weren't just two 'new' parts of the species at the snap of a finger. You're right that there were elementary levels between apes and humans...homo habilis, heidelbergensis, erectus, ergaster(my opinion is that we evolved from them), rudolfensis, etc. But they all evolved slowly and there wasn't a 'first' of each species, really, it was just a slow change over time...
>>
>>Not sure which part doesn't work.
>
>that adam and eve were the first two members of some species...

maybe they were muppets . . .


 
iggy Posted: Tue Feb 3 13:21:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>
>maybe they were muppets . . .

on weed and a lot of JD...




 
trogdor57 Posted: Tue Feb 3 14:54:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I can see this conversation just lost all value. I'm gonna slip quietly out the back...


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 3 15:00:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  trogdor57 said:
>I can see this conversation just lost all value. I'm gonna slip quietly out the back...


I can see you can't find any good arguments.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:24:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Whoa!... ok, I've just done a big move, so I did'nt have net access for the better part of the last week... which is why you have'nt heard from me.

It seems this thread has gone all over the place. I'm just going to make a vague attempt to reply to everything I think is worth replying to.

*psychs up*


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:36:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Hell hath no fury like ticked off GTers : )
>
>Sheoul, I don't think anyone here would deny you your right to post what you think. I would have lasted about 2 weeks here if everyone thought the same. It's just that if you are going to write things like "Gays are freaks" you have to expect that some are going to differ with your opinion, and let you know about it.
>If I posted this:
>"all asians are freaks. They choose to be asian, they aren't born that way! society has encouraged people to be asian"
>I would take on anyone here about my right to say that, HOWEVER I had better expect some strong responses to my statement, and better have some logical and reasoned arguements to back up that belief. With no defense I'd get my chestnuts roasted on an open fire faster than you could say queer eye for the straight guy. It's naive to think you can insult a whole group of people and not expect some kind of backlash. There's nothing wrong with examining your beliefs, and maybe questioning why you believe what you believe. When I first joined GT I thought all Asians were freaks. Now I know that my opinion was wrong. They're not freaks, they're just crazy. Keep the verdict open on gays until you've had more life experiences. : )
>

1) Yes, I expected the backlash, it was inevitable. I might be a tad naive, but I'm not THAT naive.

2) I did'nt say "gays are freaks" because they are different from me. I come from an extremely diverse society... I appreciate peoples' differences.

3) I can't say I have a gay brother. That would certainly give me something to draw from. But I have had contact with gay guys. I'm not just spouting off, without bothering to find out what/who I'm talking about.

4) If you tell anyone anything enough times, they will eventually belive it, especially if you start at an early age. Do you believe in orthodox linear evolution? Do you believe everything you read in a history book? Your average person would take it for granted, because that's what they've been taught.




 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:44:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>trogdor57 said:
>>addison said:
>>>trogdor57 said:
>>>>Well said!!!
>>>
>>>Some time you need to explain to me how you reconcile this response with you're Christian beliefs. not an attack on you, but you've made it pretty clear here what your religious views are on other threads. Where does homosexuality fit in to your views on the infalability of the Bible?
>>
>>In christianity, homosexuality is a sin. Like I said, one reason is that God gave men one sex organ, and women another is because he wants men and women together, not men and more men. And not women and more women. It follows the idea that sin is the equivilent of going against God's design. By deciding to become a homosexual, you have decided to go against the exact reason He has given you those organs. I'm not a homophobe, or a gay hater, or anything. I'll tolerate them, but I don't agree with it.
>
>Are you saying he gave us those organs for reproduction only and not for pleasure ? If that's so, then having sex for pleasure would be going against his wishes as well, would it not?

They are primarily for reproduction, pleasure just helps things along :-) Sex is not dirty, nor is it a sin.

>Also, when you use the term "in Christianity", you are lumping an awful lot of people together that have very different beliefs.
>There are a lot of homosexuals that are Christians; where do you lump them ?

There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians. That does not make them Christians.

>There are a lot of Christians that don't consider homosexuality a sin either.
>Then again, there are a lot of Christians that consider birth control to be a sin.
>You say god gave us those sex organs.
>Who gave homosexuals the urge to be with their own sex? You have to know that if you are attracted to something, you have no choice about that. Then you must assume that god played a horrible mean trick on homosexuals don't you think?

Sure you have a choice. You always have a choice. You see a very good looking woman walking down the street, and you want to have sex with her, that does'nt mean you go and rape her.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:46:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Good questions hif. I think with Sheoul and Trogdor and others the whole biological issue throws a monkey wrench in their views. In order to deal with the question being gay HAS to be a personal choice, not a birth condition. Otherwise your points have to be dealt with and it puts mud on god's face (their view of god, that is).

Do me a favour, try and educate me.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:51:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>
>What does you feeling something have to do with actual proven scientific data?
>

The same evidence can be interpreted in many ways by different people. Do you take everything "proven scientifically" for granted?




 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:55:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:

>if Jesus can hang out with the tax collectors, the unclean, the unwanted back then, why can't u be more tolerant of people?
>
>u know, if Jesus came back and saw all these behaviour from u 'righteous' folk, he'd bitch slap u people back to yo mama's womb, just like the ruckus he started in the temple.
>

I said "gays are freaks", and that makes me intolerant? I'm discriminating now? Why don't we just kill all discussion/critisism all over the world, that'll make a lot of politicians happy.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:57:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  K, there's lots more to say, but lets see if anyone replies first...


 
addi Posted: Thu Feb 5 11:59:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  First of all thanks for not going ballistic. Having a decent discussion on a hot topic like this goes much better when we hold off from the ugly personal attacks


Sheoul said:

>2) I did'nt say "gays are freaks" because they are different from me. I come from an extremely diverse society... I appreciate peoples' differences.
I'm not sure how you can say something like gays are freaks and not have us take it the way we did. Did you mean freak in the nice way?


>4) If you tell anyone anything enough times, they will eventually belive it, especially if you start at an early age. Do you believe in orthodox linear evolution? Do you believe everything you read in a history book? Your average person would take it for granted, because that's what they've been taught.

Not real sure what you mean here. My brother was not put to bed each night as a baby being told by my parents that he was gay. Hell, knowing my father it was probably just the opposite,
"Sean, you like vaginas. You are repulsed by penis's".


 
addi Posted: Thu Feb 5 12:13:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>addison said:
>>Good questions hif. I think with Sheoul and Trogdor and others the whole biological issue throws a monkey wrench in their views. In order to deal with the question being gay HAS to be a personal choice, not a birth condition. Otherwise your points have to be dealt with and it puts mud on god's face (their view of god, that is).
>
>Do me a favour, try and educate me.

Oh Geez, Sheoul, ya went and got ugly sarcastic on me.

The above statement is very clear and concise. Being Gay HAS to be choice and not biological or it knocks down the entire foundation of a fundamentalists belief system. Admitting that a child might be born gay cancels the "sin" of it, because that child had no choice in the matter.
As far as educating you, all you need to do is read all the studies done on the topic that aren't published by a conservative religious group and you might learn something you didn't know.


 
libra Posted: Thu Feb 5 12:35:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  As I've grown up, more and more of my friends have 'come out of the closet.' I've talked to them a lot, and they know that there was no choice in the matter, they are who they are, and liking other girls is it, they can't help it.
They don't encounter too much adversity here in good old Northern California, but when a friend of mine went off to college in southern ca, she had to deal with an entirely different outlook from people. She's the 'gay girl.' People ask her roommates questions about her-whether she checks out her roommates when they're changing, all kinds of stuff. She says it's so different, and she doesn't like it, but she's totally open to educating people about herself and being gay. Her roommates don't have a problem with it, and they all get along so well.

Anyway, that's a little off-topic. All I'm saying is that its not a choice, they were never told to be gay by society, if anything they were told NOT to be, and I respect them for their openness in their ability to talk about it and stand up against people who look down on them. The girl I was talking about told her friends before she told her mother, and it took her a while to tell her mom (years, actually) because she knew her mom would not like it.

Its offensive to me for you to say that gay people are freaks, Sheoul because some of my closest friends are gay, and they're some of my favorite people in the whole world.


 
Sheoul Posted: Thu Feb 5 15:44:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok, that "gays are freaks" line was probably a bit harsh, in hindsight. I'm sorry, did'nt mean to offend anyone (unbelievable as that may sound).

"Enough research will tend to support any theory."


 
FN Posted: Thu Feb 5 16:03:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>"Enough research will tend to support any theory."


That's bullshit and you know it.


 
addi Posted: Thu Feb 5 16:19:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Ok, that "gays are freaks" line was probably a bit harsh, in hindsight. I'm sorry, did'nt mean to offend anyone (unbelievable as that may sound).
>
>"Enough research will tend to support any theory."

Fair enough.

You're right. you can find research to back up any belief if you look in all the right (or wrong) places. Do a search on the internet about how the US never went to the moon. You're find all kinds of "proof" that it never happened. Do a search about the falicy of the Holocaust. You're find reasons for that being a historical piece of fiction propogated by the Jews.

So where does that leave us? You can find articles that back your "gays have a choice" position. I can do a quick google search and come up with compeling scientific studies that show a physical difference in the chemical make up in the brain between gay and straight men. Evidence that suggests it does not involve any choice on their part, but is their biological make up at birth. I know I won't change your mind, but at least you should entertain the possibility that there may be something to what some of us are saying.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Feb 5 16:28:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yep, and the earth is flat too.
We certainly can't have folks going around believing that "earth is round" theory just because science supports it.


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 00:46:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yep, and the Great Pyramid at Giza was built by a 4th dynasty Pharoah around 2500 BC.

We can't have people believing that it may have been built by a highly advanced civilization around or prior to 11000 BC, even though the evidence supports this.


 
iggy Posted: Fri Feb 6 03:40:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:

>I said "gays are freaks", and that makes me intolerant? I'm discriminating now? Why don't we just kill all discussion/critisism all over the world, that'll make a lot of politicians happy.


might as well come to a muslim country and yell out
"muslims are freaks"

discrimination and discussion/critisism are 2 different things.

u're intolerant. simple as that. sure, u can argue all day and night and try to find excuses to say otherwise, but honestly... u're intolerant.


Sheoul said:
Ok, that "gays are freaks" line was probably a bit harsh, in hindsight. I'm sorry, did'nt mean to offend anyone (unbelievable as that may sound).

a bit harsh?
didn't mean to offend?

it's ok to have your own views and all. but remember, words when said are hard to take back.



 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 05:05:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>u're intolerant. simple as that. sure, u can argue all day and night and try to find excuses to say otherwise, but honestly... u're intolerant.
>

That works both ways.


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 05:07:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>I know I won't change your mind, but at least you should entertain the possibility that there may be something to what some of us are saying.

And you must entertain the possibility that there may be something to what's being said on the other side of the fence.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Feb 6 06:53:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>Yep, and the Great Pyramid at Giza was built by a 4th dynasty Pharoah around 2500 BC.
>
>We can't have people believing that it may have been built by a highly advanced civilization around or prior to 11000 BC, even though the evidence supports this.

no, the evidence does not support this fantasy. what the evidence does support is the fact that ancient egypt had a better understanding of mathematics than previously thought.
you are gay
you are gay
you are gay
you are gay
you are gay

is it working yet ?


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 08:26:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>no, the evidence does not support this fantasy. what the evidence does support is the fact that ancient egypt had a better understanding of mathematics than previously thought.

Refer to "Fingerprints of the gods" by Graham Hancock. There's a whole bunch of other references at the end of this book as well.

My point is that believing something that you've been indoctrinated to believe does not make it true.

You are being close-minded about the subject. You firmly believe that your opinion is the only truth. Sounds to me like the argument of a fundamentalist...

>you are gay
>you are gay
>you are gay
>you are gay
>you are gay
>
>is it working yet ?

That's a sorry excuse for an argument.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Feb 6 10:25:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>no, the evidence does not support this fantasy. what the evidence does support is the fact that ancient egypt had a better understanding of mathematics than previously thought.
>
>Refer to "Fingerprints of the gods" by Graham Hancock. There's a whole bunch of other references at the end of this book as well.
>
>My point is that believing something that you've been indoctrinated to believe does not make it true.
>
>You are being close-minded about the subject. You firmly believe that your opinion is the only truth. Sounds to me like the argument of a fundamentalist...
>
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>
>>is it working yet ?
>
>That's a sorry excuse for an argument.

hmmmmm, can we say Erich Von Daniken ?
Your Mr. Hancock makes assertions and arrives at conclusions that are simply untrue.

"A widely held assumption of science, though it is by no means unanimous, tends to be that there is no soul, and that 'dead means dead.'"
--Graham Hancock, Heaven's Mirror

Sorry Graham, scientists by and large make no such assumption. Being empirical, science cannot draw a conclusion about soul, and taking an agnostic position about soul is different from making an assumption.

Graham Hancock likes to label questions about the past as "great mysteries. " His books have sold well, and he claims that he can see what "mainstream scholars" ignore. In this sense he considers himself a great archaeologist, and he complains that mainstream scholars have no respect for him because they are either blind or trying to protect their territory. But "mainstream" archaeologists have good reason to not to respect Hancock: he is full of blather.




 
libra Posted: Fri Feb 6 10:31:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>
>>is it working yet ?
>
>That's a sorry excuse for an argument.

as if your so eloquent "gays are freaks" line is just an amazing point in your argument. I'm sure we're all going to just bow down to your opinions and say "ohhhh, i've been so wrong" after we've heard that.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Feb 6 10:54:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sheoul said:
>>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>you are gay
>>
>>is it working yet ?
>
>That's a sorry excuse for an argument.

that's not an argument dude.i'm just poking fun at your argument, showing how ridiculous it is.


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 6 11:12:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Sheoul said:
>>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>
>>>is it working yet ?

I started reading this post over and over and over to see what effect it might have.

Hif I don't believe I've told you lately how attractive and handsome you are.


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 6 11:13:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Sheoul said:
>>>>>you are gay
>>>>you are gay
>>>>you are gay
>>>>you are gay
>>>>you are gay
>>>>
>>>>is it working yet ?
>
>I started reading this post over and over and over to see what effect it might have.
>
>Hif I don't believe I've told you lately how attractive and handsome you are.


Stay away from my man bitch!


*runs at addison screaming and scratching*


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 6 11:22:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Stay away from my man bitch!
>
>
>*runs at addison screaming and scratching*

You are STRAIGHT!!
You are STRAIGHT!!
You are STRAIGHT!!
You are STRAIGHT!!


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 11:56:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Sheoul said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>
>>>is it working yet ?
>>
>>That's a sorry excuse for an argument.
>
>as if your so eloquent "gays are freaks" line is just an amazing point in your argument. I'm sure we're all going to just bow down to your opinions and say "ohhhh, i've been so wrong" after we've heard that.

It was'nt an argument. It was a statement of my opinion. Am I not allowed to state my opinions? There are a few other posters who post things that are contrary to my beliefs, and that I find offensive. You don't see me bitching and moaning do you? Grow up. Deal with it. If you don't want to accept my apology, then stuff you too.


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 6 11:58:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Heil Hitler to that.


 
Sheoul Posted: Fri Feb 6 12:01:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Sheoul said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>no, the evidence does not support this fantasy. what the evidence does support is the fact that ancient egypt had a better understanding of mathematics than previously thought.
>>
>>Refer to "Fingerprints of the gods" by Graham Hancock. There's a whole bunch of other references at the end of this book as well.
>>
>>My point is that believing something that you've been indoctrinated to believe does not make it true.
>>
>>You are being close-minded about the subject. You firmly believe that your opinion is the only truth. Sounds to me like the argument of a fundamentalist...
>>
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>you are gay
>>>
>>>is it working yet ?
>>
>>That's a sorry excuse for an argument.
>
>hmmmmm, can we say Erich Von Daniken ?
>Your Mr. Hancock makes assertions and arrives at conclusions that are simply untrue.
>
>"A widely held assumption of science, though it is by no means unanimous, tends to be that there is no soul, and that 'dead means dead.'"
> --Graham Hancock, Heaven's Mirror
>
>Sorry Graham, scientists by and large make no such assumption. Being empirical, science cannot draw a conclusion about soul, and taking an agnostic position about soul is different from making an assumption.
>
>Graham Hancock likes to label questions about the past as "great mysteries. " His books have sold well, and he claims that he can see what "mainstream scholars" ignore. In this sense he considers himself a great archaeologist, and he complains that mainstream scholars have no respect for him because they are either blind or trying to protect their territory. But "mainstream" archaeologists have good reason to not to respect Hancock: he is full of blather.
>
>

The point was not the content of the subject, but that

"Enough research will tend to support any theory."

It's easy enough to delude yourself. I just want you to accept the POSSIBILITY that there may be some substance in my argument that homosexuals have choice.

After all, we KNEW that the earth was the centre of the galaxy at one point.


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 6 12:19:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yeah but there was no way to prove it, nobody could take pictures from out of space, just like your theory is crap since scientist can now look inside people's head and see the difference in parts of the brain.


Are you saying you yourself can decide which part of your brain you want to make bigger/smaller?


 
marsteller Posted: Fri Feb 6 13:27:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i think Sheoul's just got a nasty case of latent-homosexuality and self-loathing. rough break man.


 
Nikki Posted: Fri Feb 6 14:46:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  allo Christophe Ich habe die Keine Zeit und viel Arbeit Heute Abend und ich habe die Nase voll mit dir


 
dan632 Posted: Tue Mar 9 21:58:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mich doch ach biel forg leg falls fag youch die voll mit dir habe flabe.
what dose that mean? i don't know but i need to tell u, i know you're secret! your mum has a wooden leg with a possom in it!


 



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