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two questions
sweet p Posted: Sat Feb 21 04:05:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was thinking....and I have two questions.


1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?

2) If I was not baptised, does that mean I am not allowed in Heaven? [And according to what religions specifically.]



 
Puck Posted: Sat Feb 21 04:28:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?
If someone is pretending to believe in god, then they must not believe in God, so that person wouldn't consider it a sin.



 
Sheoul Posted: Sat Feb 21 08:15:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>I was thinking....and I have two questions.
>
>
>1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?

What Puck said.

>2) If I was not baptised, does that mean I am not allowed in Heaven? [And according to what religions specifically.]
>
Speaking from a Christian perspective, and based on hazy memories of stuff I was taught when I was younger:
Baptism is the church's way of accepting you into their community and a way of confirming your belief in Christ. Directly translated it means "to purify" or something vaguely like that. If you are not baptised you will not be buried in a church burial ground, that is all. It is not directly related to being allowed into Heaven. An example: the prisoner who died on the cross next to Jesus was not baptised, yet he was promised a place next to God in Heaven.


 
addi Posted: Sat Feb 21 08:42:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?

I think I know what you mean here, and where you're coming from (trying to get into sweetP's mind is scarey). Maybe you're asking Is it a sin to have doubts about god's exsistence? Or maybe you meant is it a sin to say prayers, occationally go to church, say "christian" things, but not believe in god underneath it all? To which addi would respond to both, "no, it isn't."


>2) If I was not baptised, does that mean I am not allowed in Heaven? [And according to what religions specifically.]

some denominations within protestantism take the whole baptism thing more seriously than others. I was taught growing up as a Baptist that baptism was a necessary requirementto enter heaven. I think it's importance differs from denomination to denomination. My personal responce is to just say why would anyone even want to believe in a god that wouldn't let you into heaven on a technicality like not being baptized?
Coversation at heaven's gate:
P: I've led a good life. I've believed in Jesus as my savior. I've loved others as myself. may I enter?
God: Everything you say is true. P, you've led a remarkably loving and caring life, and I can see in your heart that you were reborn, accepting Christ as your savior....
However, I also see you were never baptized. So it's off to an eternity in hell for you . Bye-Bye! (pulls chord, and P falls through cloud)




 
misszero Posted: Sat Feb 21 08:47:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi! come play with me!

misszero13@hotmail.com


 
addi Posted: Sat Feb 21 08:52:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  misszero said:
>addi! come play with me!
>
>misszero13@hotmail.com

HaHA! this is Ludwig. addi's been grounded for the day for saying bad things about god. He has to spend the day doing his taxes as punishment (shit!) Maybe he can play tomorrow.


 
antartica Posted: Sat Feb 21 08:57:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  misszero said:
>addi! come play with me!
>
>misszero13@hotmail.com

HEH HEH HEH!!!
gotcha........ =P


 
misszero Posted: Sat Feb 21 09:02:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  well, in any case, SOMEONE come play with me, before I esplode (hehehehe)


 
addi Posted: Sat Feb 21 09:06:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  misszero said:
>well, in any case, SOMEONE come play with me, before I esplode (hehehehe)

**addi sends his personal apologies, Ms. Oh


 
misszero Posted: Sat Feb 21 09:11:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  **


 
trogdor57 Posted: Sat Feb 21 13:19:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well, first off, I believe we need some clarification on, "pretending," but on the whole, it is a sin to deny god, but I'm not sure exactly what your sercumstances are, so I'll leave it alone.

As for baptism, I don't believe it has an effect on whether or not you get into heaven. The only thing that does matter is whether you believe in Jesus, that he did what he did because he's God's son, and that he died to save all mankind from their sins and eternity in Hell.


 
sweet p Posted: Sat Feb 21 14:24:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Sweet P said:
>
>>1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?
>
>I think I know what you mean here, and where you're coming from (trying to get into sweetP's mind is scarey). Maybe you're asking Is it a sin to have doubts about god's exsistence? Or maybe you meant is it a sin to say prayers, occationally go to church, say "christian" things, but not believe in god underneath it all? To which addi would respond to both, "no, it isn't."
>
>
>>2) If I was not baptised, does that mean I am not allowed in Heaven? [And according to what religions specifically.]
>
>some denominations within protestantism take the whole baptism thing more seriously than others. I was taught growing up as a Baptist that baptism was a necessary requirementto enter heaven. I think it's importance differs from denomination to denomination. My personal responce is to just say why would anyone even want to believe in a god that wouldn't let you into heaven on a technicality like not being baptized?
>Coversation at heaven's gate:
>P: I've led a good life. I've believed in Jesus as my savior. I've loved others as myself. may I enter?
>God: Everything you say is true. P, you've led a remarkably loving and caring life, and I can see in your heart that you were reborn, accepting Christ as your savior....
>However, I also see you were never baptized. So it's off to an eternity in hell for you . Bye-Bye! (pulls chord, and P falls through cloud)
>
>


: )


Why is it scary trying to get into my mind!? If not more, it is only as messed up as yours ; )

BUT really, I have my own answer for the first question. I just thought it was kinda funny to think about and wanted to know what people would say. Apparently, most didn't know what to say. But that's ok. I liked your answer anyhow.

As for the second question, I had a long discussion with my rommates about baptism and the fact that they refuse to let their future husbands have a say in whether or not their children will be baptised. They think that it would be a horrendous thing to not have their children baptised [ie. deny them a chance at heaven]. I thought, like with most of religion, if once you got older and decided that "hey! I want to go to heaven with mister god" you could tell god you believed in him and then be baptised as an adult and all would be fine and dandy.

Either way, I think it's all really ridiculous to think about.

I suppose I will just have to allow my children to hate me for not forcing them to go to heaven hehe.

I guess because religion is not something of great importance to me, [in my life at the moment at least] I never thought about having a husband who wanted to baptise our kids or all those potentially conflicting things I will one day have to discuss with someone.

It makes me feel like I am definitely not prepared for marriage and all that stuff....but that also, is very ok with me.



 
FN Posted: Sat Feb 21 14:33:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I truly wish I was never baptised.

But my parents did it to please my grandparents and if I ever wanted to mary for the ceremony thing in church i would be able to do so


 
addi Posted: Sat Feb 21 15:29:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>Why is it scary trying to get into my mind!? If not more, it is only as messed up as yours ; )

It wasn't a slam on your mind at all, P. I'm sure if there were some guage that could be used to measure the messed upness of ones mind mine would be much worse than yours at the moment. I just meant that the LAST place my mind needs to be is in your mind right now, which I don't expect you to understand anyway, so just forget it : )



>As for the second question, I had a long discussion with my rommates about baptism and the fact that they refuse to let their future husbands have a say in whether or not their children will be baptised.

If you (speaking generally here, not you in particular, P) and your mate aren't reasonably in synch on matters of faith you are in for a bumpy ride. Financial matters, sex, and spiritual differences are all major causes for incompatibility and separations. People need to find a mate that believes like they do, whether it's atheism, agnostism, or fundamentalism. Of course, I know you already knew that.


>It makes me feel like I am definitely not prepared for marriage and all that stuff....but that also, is very ok with me.
LOL! No Rush!
Hypothetical question: Is anyone ever really prepared for marriage and all that stuff?


 
marsteller Posted: Sat Feb 21 16:30:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  if you don't get christened you'll go to purgatory with all the unbaptized babies.


 
SntSaturn Posted: Sat Feb 21 18:24:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  As far as I've been taught baptism was more of a showing to the world your belief in God. Something God asked you to do, like announcing a new relationship to the world. *shrugs* But no consequences either way. I got baptized in 7th grade? I think.


 
simonvii Posted: Sun Feb 22 00:55:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>I was thinking....and I have two questions.
>
>
>1) Is it a sin to pretend to believe in god?
>
>2) If I was not baptised, does that mean I am not allowed in Heaven? [And according to what religions specifically.]
>
answer #1) by "pretending to believe in God" im taking it as meaning hypocrisy, like someone else posted, cuz if you didnt believe in God, faking it couldnt be a sin cuz who could judge? so in terms of hypocrisy, saying you believe and acting otherwise, yeah its a sin but no one is exempt, we all do it to some extent...thats why christians believe Christ died, to forgive the sin we all have, if we didnt sin we wouldnt need forgiveness.
answer #2)Baptism come from the greek "baptiso" or something along those lines, and literally means "to dip" (which is constant cause of quarrels between denominations on how to go about baptism itself - dunking or sprinkling)...generally where im coming from its taken as the moment you make a public pronouncement of your faith, saying "i believe this, and as a result im getting baptised", by being dunked into water you symbolize Christ's death, by rising out you symbolize His resurrection, new life...thats another quarrelsom thing between christian denominations, how babies and children shouldnt be baptised cuz they arent making the pronouncement of faith, their parents are making it for them...however defenders say they baptise children in recognition of God's predestined place in heaven for their kids, anyway thats another subject...but no, God will not deny anyone entrance to heaven just because they are not baptised, because that means we as humans have something to do with salvation- we could control it by baptising or not baptising, which is wrong according to baptists because they believe salvation is all and only from God


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 22 05:43:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Isn't it a fortunate coincidence that children get baptised and get to do their communion right before they reach the age that they can decide for themselves (+- 12 years old)


 
DanSRose Posted: Fri Feb 27 02:52:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  1- Technically, yes it is. See: above. For me, I believe in action. I know too many religious hypocrites and too many noble atheists. If you do good, then Heaven is on Earth, as you create it to be so.

2- Under most Christian faiths, yes. But, I'm a Jew (a lonely Jew, on Christmas... hee), so I don't care. That's probably where my "Heaven is how you live life" thing comes from. No, I don't know the official rabbinical take on Heaven or Hell. I do know that Buddhist tradition and Hindu faith teaches that you are reincarnated until you acheive a state of pureness and wisdom. With Islam, I'm pretty sure it's similar to the Judeo-Christian idea of it, all through the Five Pillars of Faith (Affirmation of Belief, Prayer, Alms, Pilgrimage to Mecca, and Fasting during Ramadam).


 
simonvii Posted: Fri Feb 27 10:23:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:

>
>2- Under most Christian faiths, yes.
actually thats not true, most protestant denominations, as stated earlier, have at least two sacraments - the Lord's supper (communion), and baptism...however just because you don't do these things (as stated earlier) does not mean you cant get into heaven - Jesus himself says, no one can get to the father cept thru me, and most protestant religions believe that salvation is all God, whereas if baptism allows you into heaven you
could control your own heaven entry by whether ur baptised or not (see ephesians 2:8,9)

But, I'm a Jew (a lonely Jew, on Christmas... hee), so I don't care. That's probably where my "Heaven is how you live life" thing comes from.
okay from what i know of judaism, 'heaven is how you live life'doesnt make a whole lot of sense...jews have basic christian beliefs, they just dont believe that Christ was the messiah...as a jew you would be looking forward to the messiah who is (in the jewish faith) yet to come, so as to redeem the jewish people and set up his kingdom, heaven, which in the jewish faith is an actual place, not a way of life...thats like saying "chicago is how you live your life", it makes no sense


 
simonvii Posted: Fri Feb 27 10:25:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
k in my last post the following was said by dansrose but got lost in my text, so im just clarifying:



DanSRose said:
>
>>
>>2- Under most Christian faiths, yes.
>But, I'm a Jew (a lonely Jew, on Christmas... hee), so I don't care. That's probably where my "Heaven is how you live life" thing comes from.



 
DanSRose Posted: Fri Feb 27 17:55:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
>2- Under most Christian faiths, yes.
>actually thats not true, most protestant denominations, as stated earlier, have at least two sacraments - the Lord's supper (communion), and baptism...however just because you don't do these things (as stated earlier) does not mean you cant get into heaven - Jesus himself says, no one can get to the father cept thru me, and most protestant religions believe that salvation is all God, whereas if baptism allows you into heaven you
>could control your own heaven entry by whether ur baptised or not (see ephesians 2:8,9)
>okay from what i know of judaism, 'heaven is how you live life'doesnt make a whole lot of sense...jews have basic christian beliefs, they just dont believe that Christ was the messiah...as a jew you would be looking forward to the messiah who is (in the jewish faith) yet to come, so as to redeem the jewish people and set up his kingdom, heaven, which in the jewish faith is an actual place, not a way of life...thats like saying "chicago is how you live your life", it makes no sense

Most of that is my own personal interpretation. Not an official word from a Jerusalem rabbi. Most of that comes from an intensive Holocaust studies background.
As a Jew, I should be appalled of the creation of a Jewish state. (this is not a strike on Israeli politics) A Jewish nation should, according to Isaiah, be made after the Messiah comes, bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth. It's for God to create, not man. But, to me the creation of the Jewish state of Israel is one of the greatest events twentieth century.
Also, my rabbi (and several others I have met and counseled with) encouraged me to draw my own conclusions and interpretations from the Bible and Talmud (a massive interpretation guide/law book for the Old Testament), even if it were different to traditional line of thought.


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 27 18:17:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:


>But, to me the creation of the Jewish state of Israel is one of the greatest events twentieth century.


Greatest as in eventful, profound, important
or
Greatest as the best thing that has happened?

And any thoughts you'd care to share on the current disaster happening over there.
Should the Israelies give up territories gained in the wars and allow a physical Palestinean State? Do the Palisteinians (sp) have valid grievances against Israeli oppression, or have they brought it all upon themselves with tactics like suicide bombings of public areas?


 
DanSRose Posted: Sat Feb 28 21:54:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Greatest as in eventful, profound, important
>or
>Greatest as the best thing that has happened?

I'm not sure of the difference and I also don't like ranking things like that. One of the main reasons the state of Israel was created was because of the Holocaust, so I could not say it was the best thing to happen. But it is profound and important as it created a safe haven for a people that historical made pariah of from social, religious, and political sources from as far back as Constantine.

>And any thoughts you'd care to share on the current disaster happening over there.
>Should the Israelies give up territories gained in the wars and allow a physical Palestinean State? Do the Palestinians have valid grievances against Israeli oppression, or have they brought it all upon themselves with tactics like suicide bombings of public areas?

Um, I'm not particulary comfortable with making a judgement with this.
While the Palestinian people did not exist as a cultural identity before 1950, most were allowed to return to their homes after the Independence War- almost all refused on the basis of it was their land and not the Jews. To allow all refugeÚs to return, Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. Also, many Palestinian "allies" do not help the Palestinian people. While many live in Jordan, they are considered approximately "half-breeds" (not actually, but the stigma of one). Very few of the Arab states have made any attempt to help the Palestinians, other than trying to invade Israel and use the Palestinians as a political tool against Israel.
On the land issue, no, I don't believe it would help. It was attempted before and all attempts failed, more on the side of the Arab world than the Israeli side. Much of what Israel is facing is desparation to not being blown up.

So, not really. Palestinians have good arguements for reclaimation of land, but not when all attempts on their side have ended up in betrayal.




 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 29 10:29:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  thanks, Dan. Complicated and difficult questions to answer. I put you on the spot.
What I meant by the greatest was that it can be used in two very distinct ways, and I wasn't sure which way you were using it in the formation of Israel.

Example: Hitler was a great man (as in good, wise, intelligent, etc..)
or in the sense that Hitler had a great impact on the events of the 20th century.
One definition applies a moral value to him, and the other a value of historical importance, based on the impact he had. There is a major difference and I didn't know which you meant (maybe both?)in your reference to the formation of Israel.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Feb 29 14:29:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>thanks, Dan. Complicated and difficult questions to answer. I put you on the spot.
>What I meant by the greatest was that it can be used in two very distinct ways, and I wasn't sure which way you were using it in the formation of Israel.
>
>Example: Hitler was a great man (as in good, wise, intelligent, etc..)
>or in the sense that Hitler had a great impact on the events of the 20th century.
>One definition applies a moral value to him, and the other a value of historical importance, based on the impact he had. There is a major difference and I didn't know which you meant (maybe both?)in your reference to the formation of Israel.

It's hard to answer that. The formation of Israel is distinctly tied with the Holocaust.
hmm, Let me try it like this: the formation of Israel is great (a) as it allowed a safe haven from all the atrocities of the past that were committed on the Jewish people. (b) though not necessarily a positive thing as it was in part a reaction by the world powers at the time to their own responsibility from their own in action.
So, it was great, but sad (from its rooted beginnings) at the same time).


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 29 15:32:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  My guess is that it boils down to one's perspective. If you are Jewish it was a great event. If you are Palestinean it was a not such a "great" event. Coming from it as neither pro Israeli, nor pro Palestinean, I view it as a great and constant source of tragedy and futility for humankind in general.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Feb 29 17:59:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>My guess is that it boils down to one's perspective. If you are Jewish it was a great event. If you are Palestinean it was a not such a "great" event. Coming from it as neither pro Israeli, nor pro Palestinean, I view it as a great and constant source of tragedy and futility for humankind in general.

Oh, now I understand your definition and agree with it, especially the third. While first is absolute truth (unless you interpret the Bible strictly, with the understanding that Israel must only be recreated as a nation by the Messiah), the second is rather questionable since the Palestinian forced a great deal of the situation to how it is today.


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 29 18:14:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:

> the second is rather questionable since the Palestinian forced a great deal of the situation to how it is today.

I don't doubt the Palestinians have made some grave blunders along the way, however it takes two to tango.

But I'm not ready to get in a heated political discussion with a new fellow "progressive" here, so I'm going to table that one for some future discussion perhaps.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Feb 29 18:34:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>I don't doubt the Palestinians have made some grave blunders along the way, however it takes two to tango.
>
>But I'm not ready to get in a heated political discussion with a new fellow "progressive" here, so I'm going to table that one for some future discussion perhaps.

Agreed. That would be very out-of-place in this thread. Unity among Progressives!


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Feb 29 19:20:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ah, but I am lurking in the background and ready to pounce !


 
laurie Posted: Mon May 3 14:27:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I got baptised and went to a catholic primary school and did first confession, communion, confirmation like a good girl, and the second I left and went to a non denominational school I realised I believed in none of it. Now I seem to be stuck in a religion I dont believe in in order not to offend the rest of my family :S amn't I pathetic? I think if anything I'm going to hell more so than those who havn't been baptised at all. lol. though I do like the whole catholic schoolgirl thing I get from my more horny friends :p


 



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