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are we getting more stupid?
iggy Posted: Mon Apr 5 20:28:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hitler wasn't real, says one in 10 historically challenged Britons
By Julie Henry
(Filed: 04/04/2004)

British people are ignorant of some of the most important events and people in this country's history, a new survey has revealed.

As well as an inability to recall the dates of military victories and the personalities involved, there is also huge confusion about which characters and battles are fact and fiction.

One in 10 of the 2,000 adults questioned in the survey commissioned by Blenheim Palace thought that Adolf Hitler was not a real person, and half were convinced that King Arthur existed.

Almost three-quarters did not know that the Battle of Blenheim took place 300 years ago, even though it is one of the greatest British military triumphs. Fewer than one in eight had heard of John Churchill, the first Duke of Marlborough, who led the British to victory against the French and for whom the palace was built by the nation as a reward.

A quarter of the adults were unsure whether the Battle of Trafalgar was a real historical event, and more than half thought that Horatio Nelson commanded British troops at the battle of Waterloo. Similarly, one in seven Britons did not know that the Battle of Hastings was real.

The lack of knowledge was greeted with alarm by historians. Tristram Hunt, the historian and television presenter, said: "Perhaps more worrying is the apparent merging of fact and fiction. There has always been myth and legend in history, but these findings show that there is a real need for clear understanding. There is a clear challenge here for academics to engage with a popular audience."

John Hoy, the chief executive of Blenheim Palace - the birthplace of Sir Winston Churchill - said that he was amazed that so few people had heard of the battle in whose honour the palace was named.

"By defeating the forces of Louis XIV in the War of the Spanish Succession, John Churchill changed the history of Britain and Europe. It was such a momentous event that it led Queen Anne to bestow Blenheim Palace on Churchill as a gift from 'a grateful nation'.

"The problem for many people is that they associate history with dry and dusty dates and facts. Once they realise that history is about people - the way we used to live and the way we live now - it becomes more relevant and exciting."

Researchers also found that respondents struggled with modern history. One in five believed that Harold Wilson was prime minister during the Second World War. Confusion about Britain's historical figures was laid at the door of Hollywood films, such as Braveheart, and Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Almost half the adults surveyed believed that Sir William Wallace was not a real person, and a quarter were convinced that Robin Hood was.

One in 20 thought that Conan the Barbarian, a character played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, was a genuine person. Some also believed that Lord Edmund Blackadder and Xena Warrior Princess, characters from television series, were real.

Children are similarly ignorant of British history. Thirty per cent of 11 to 18-year-olds in a recent survey thought that Oliver Cromwell fought at the Battle of Hastings. A similar proportion did not know in which century the First World War took place.

However, Peter Furtado, the editor of History Today magazine, said that history teaching had been praised by inspectors as excellent. "There has been a greater emphasis in schools on dates and historical timelines," he said.

"In a way, there is just too much history and the most we can hope is that pupils are inspired to learn more and continue with history study.

"People have always been inspired by fiction to learn history. Many historians talk about the fact that a rollicking good read or film caught their imagination. It means that some people are inspired to find out more. Inevitably though, some people will get the wrong end of the stick."

Blenheim Palace, in Woodstock, Oxfordshire, was designed by the architect Sir John Vanbrugh and built between 1705 and 1722 in honour of the British victory over Louis XIV of France at Blenheim, a small village on the banks of the River Danube, in 1704.

Malik Posted: Mon Apr 5 23:10:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  That's just british people. You should watch jaywalking with Jay Leno....

marsteller Posted: Tue Apr 6 00:29:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  history's always been muddled like that, part fact part myth/legend. that's just how it works.

ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 6 10:55:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Here in America, we are graduating high schoolers that can't find Guatemala on a world map.

FN Posted: Tue Apr 6 12:16:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I wonder how many Americans would be able to find China at first glance or roughly raw the Russian border for example. I wonder how many would know where Belgium is lol, even though Brussels (Belgium's capital) is somewhat the capital of Europe.

I'm not talking about GTers right now (as far as I know) but other Americans (in general, not all as with everything) I have talked to seem to know close to nothing about other countries.

SntSaturn Posted: Tue Apr 6 12:34:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  our video production class actually does a version of jaywalking around our highschool. It's hilarious. They once asked a student "who fought the americans in the civil war?" and the student answered "wasn't it the japanese?" Wow... the standards of learning.

FN Posted: Tue Apr 6 12:44:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I always hear about american schools being under-funded.

Doesnt that basicly come down to the fact that if you're rich you get a good education and if you're poor it's as good as certain you'll get somewhat inferior education?

And what's up with the whole 'dropping classes' thing I keep on hearing about.

Over here every school has (for let's say 95% at least, some schools give an hour extra or less of a certain subject) the same list of classes (talking about highschools, universities and colleges are more specialised).

ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 6 12:58:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The Year's Ten Worst Moments in Education

By Rick Parsons
Young Americans for Freedom | December 26, 2003

Our nation’s education system continues to be weighted down with incidences of bias and political correctness. Young America’s Foundation compiled a list of the top ten most shameful campus events in America’s education system in 2003:

10. Gonzaga University (Spokane, WA) administration officials censored a conservative student group’s flyer advertising a Young America’s Foundation organized lecture because the word “hate” was used on the flyer. The flyer in question featured the topic of guest speaker Dan Flynn’s speech, “Why the Left Hates America,” which is also the title of his book. The administration first approved the flyer then rescinded the approval after some professors purportedly complained of the use of the word “hate.” Furthermore, in a letter obtained by the Foundation, Gonzaga’s Office of Student Activities informed the conservative student group that a complaint was made against the group because some individuals felt “the Left Hates…” printed on the flyer was “discriminatory.” The letter did not identify who raised objections to the flyer.

9. Park Ridge elementary school officials in Nampa, Idaho told an 11-year-old student to stop wearing his patriotic military theme T-shirt to school. The T-shirt depicts a monument at the Fort Lewis military base in the state of Washington. It shows “Iron Mike” hoisting a rifle with a star in the background. After public pressure, school officials reversed their decision and admitted the T-shirt did not fit under the school’s policy prohibiting clothing depicting guns or gangs.

8. Students at Smith College, an all-female school in Massachusetts, voted to remove all feminine pronouns from the school constitution and replace them with gender-neutral ones. The editing of the constitution is part of an effort to make transgender students feel more welcome on the campus.

7. The president of the University of Arizona sent out a formal letter to the class of 2003 stating that tortillas will not be allowed at their commencement. Throwing tortillas is a tradition at the university’s graduation ceremony, but the university president thought the tradition was disrespectful to many of the school’s Hispanic and American Indian community members. Members of the Chicano/Hispano Student Affairs (CHSA) organization said they know the tradition is celebratory and not meant to offend.

6. A group of teachers and parents at Jefferson Elementary School in Berkeley, California is pushing to rename the school because Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder. Supporters of the name change say that it is insensitive to leave the name of a slaveholder on a building with a large black student population.

5. A 14-year-old New Jersey student was suspended for five days for drawing a picture of a stick figure U.S. Marine shooting a Taliban fighter. School officials said the student was being punished for the drawing, that it was “highly inappropriate,” and the school took it “very seriously.” The student’s dad and step-dad are in the military.

4. The Roger Williams University (RI) administration froze funding and attacked a conservative campus organization for advocating diversity of thought through the group’s publication, The Hawk’s Right Eye. The university’s president, Roy Nirschel, sent an email to all students and faculty denouncing the paper and claiming the organization flirted with racism and “crossed seriously over the lines of propriety.” He went on to state that while the university affirms “the right of campus organizations to hold different points of view and to disagree, the university will not condone publications that create a hostile environment for our students and community” and added that the university is “too busy for hate.” Student activist Jason Mattera says the harassment by administration officials began when his group published articles in their newspaper countering attacks on Christianity, freedom of association, and diversity of thought made by two university sponsored guest speakers this fall. The guest speakers were Judy Shepard, mother of slain homosexual Matthew Shepard, and James Dale, a gay man excluded from the Boy Scouts. Shepard stated during her Welcome Week speech that “churches are damaging us as a society. They don’t allow us to grow.” Dale castigated the Boy Scouts and trivialized its right of free association.

3. A professor at Citrus College in Glendora, California forced students in her Speech 106 class, a required course, to write anti-war letters to President Bush and penalized their grades after some refused. When several students asked if they could write letters supportive of Bush’s policies instead, the professor refused and informed the students their grades would suffer if they wrote such letters. The college sanctioned the professor and apologized to the students.

2. Professor Nicholas De Genova of Columbia University stated during a six-hour university teach-in on the war in Iraq that he would like to see “a million Mogadishus”—a reference to the eighteen American soldiers who were ambushed and killed in Mogadishu, Somalia in 1993.

1. Wesleyan University in Connecticut now offers a “Gender Blind” dormitory floor for incoming students who aren’t sure what sex they are. Students who ask for the floor will have roommates appointed without regard to their sex, perceived or otherwise. The rooms will be set aside for transgender students, described as those students born with ambiguous genitalia or who don’t identify with their physical sex.

SntSaturn Posted: Tue Apr 6 13:46:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I always hear about american schools being under-funded.
>Doesnt that basicly come down to the fact that if you're rich you get a good education and if you're poor it's as good as certain you'll get somewhat inferior education?
>And what's up with the whole 'dropping classes' thing I keep on hearing about.

SntSaturn Posted: Tue Apr 6 13:48:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ugh. hit the post button a bit too early.

Now for my comments on that: yes, american schools are incredibly underfunded. Thats one of my problems with George W. (I am a fan of his) He has that program "leave no child behind" or something but he doesn't support it financially. My school being one to make budget cuts as well as a lot of others in this area.

And what do you wonder about dropping classes? That confused me.

libra Posted: Tue Apr 6 14:00:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  about the dropping classes thing (i don't know if this will help)...

most high schools in America don't have a set schedule for each year, you can kind of pick and choose as long as you have the correct amount and type of credits at the end...sort of like college. Some of the classes are required, but others are a choice between several, or a decision of when you want to take the class.
For example, it is required to take one year of physical and one year of biological science at my old high school. But you can choose whether you want to take biology, and choose between chemistry and physics for the other requirement, or you can take all you don't have to take every class, and you can pick things you're more interested in, or you'll do better can switch around your classes at the beginning of the year, or drop them halfway through, if you don't like it (but then the counselors hate you).

my friend in germany (she was an exchange student at my school junior year), said that its a lot different from her school where they all take the same classes and don't really get a choice, she also said that the students stay in the same classroom almost all day and the teachers come to them instead of going to your teacher's classroom.

DanSRose Posted: Tue Apr 6 15:29:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I can't explain the actions of the elementary schools other than political correctness gone awry, but I do have some for the Universities:
Universities are meccas of free thought and conservativism just doesn't fit in.
Sexless constitutions and transgender dorms aren't a bad thing- I don't see why this is "bad" for education. They really do promote unity.
I do agree that censorship of any kind is bad, wrong, stupid, and workds against the underpinning ideology of the University atmosphere.
The Jefferson thing is stupid, but I understand where the U of AZ president is coming from- a WASP seeing flying tortillas could be see it as "insensitive".
That Columbia professor should be fired.

ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 6 15:49:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The Politics of a High School Education

By Steve Miller | November 18, 2002

I am a senior at Santa Monica High School. We have student assemblies run by the school Activities Committee and the administration, at which guest speakers come to address the students. In my experience at the school, these speakers have all been members of the political left. It was last March that my friend, Chris Moritz, first came up with the idea of inviting David Horowitz to speak to our school. In December, we had invited widely celebrated ABC radio host and best-selling author, Larry Elder, to address students. As far as I know, he was the first libertarian ever to speak at Santa Monica High, and yet the school authorities stipulated that if he were to come he would have to be balanced by a left-wing speaker. The school administration failed to make any such demand for the left-wing speakers that both preceded and followed Mr. Elder, many of whom attempted to recruit students for their causes.

Our motivation for inviting Mr. Elder was our desire to offset some of the left-wing bias at our high school. Not only are all the speakers invited to campus left-wing, but several teachers impose their leftist views in the classroom and recruit students for demonstrations such as the October March against the war with Iraq. Union organizer Dolores Huerta was a speaker at our school and recruited students to march on union picket lines against a localDoubletree Hotel, adjacent to our High School campus. Police were already present on the picket site because of the ongoing threat of violence. This is certainly not the only time students have been led by their teachers onto the picket lines, escorted by administrators -- as though this is part of their educational curriculum.

It was our hope that hearing Larry Elder might inspire some students to rethink a few of their assumptions and perhaps even be induced to supplement their education with conservative texts. And that is exactly what happened. On visiting our high school, Larry Elder saw firsthand how ill-informed students were about a wide array of political issues, and how hostile many are to conservative viewpoints. Although a number of factors contribute to this, the overwhelming factor is the active indoctrination of students in the classroom by left-wing teachers with the support of the school administration.

When we invited David Horowitz, the administration claims that at first they did not know which David Horowitz we had invited, apparently thinking he was the consumer advocate. But then two days before his scheduled appearance in May, discovering he was conservative, they abruptly cancelled the permission that was required for him to speak. Their explanation? They said it would distract the students from their studies. Recruiting them to march on picket lines where violence might occur apparently would not.

If the school had let Larry Elder speak, why you might ask, would they resist David Horowitz? From the school’s perspective, Larry’s assembly was probably a nightmare. Students suddenly became more cognizant of the ideological bias in their school. Leftist teachers and students complained that Elder was allowed to speak at all. Moreover, the administration’s absurd request to have him balanced put the school in a negative light. This was a very public light because Larry invited Chris and myself to come on his radio show and tell our side of the story. To add David Horowitz to this mix was obviously not something they would be looking forward to.

Over the summer, new administrators were hired and the command structure was reorganized. Hoping that these changes would work to our benefit, Chris and I again asked the administration if David could come and speak as soon as school resumed. Little did we know that this minor request would trigger massive resistance on the part of the school. A local Santa Monica paper was sympathetic to our plight and many articles were written about the school’s behavior. Larry Elder invited me on his show several times to talk about the school’s distressing conduct. I had previously discussed the school’s indefensible cancellation of the scheduled May appearance of David Horowitz, and this had resulted in considerable criticism directed at the school administration. The effect of this adverse publicity was that the school administration adopted more subtle tactics, causing endless delays in getting final permission rather than just denying the permission altogether.

First we asked if we could re-submit the application for Horowitz’s assembly from the end of last year, a request that was denied. When we asked for a new application we were told they were unavailable. As soon as one became available, we filled it out and turned it in. The application was short and simple, and considering that we had already gone through this procedure very recently, we figured it should not take very long to process. Yet, we waited and waited, and no response came. Finally, we were told that before they could approve Mr. Horowitz, we would have to submit a club charter, something that had not been asked for before. We did this right away. Then we were told that we needed to submit our application for Horowitz's appearance all over again. So we did. But this didn't end our trials.

We waited some time for a reply and then a teacher on the Activities Committee told us they had never actually received our club charter. When we asked the administration what they did with it, they assured us they had turned it over to the Activities Committee. I went to the Activities Committee and was told that they did not have it and that the administration was not returning their calls. At some point, it surfaced, and our club was approved. The administration then told us that they had never been notified of the approval, and thus they could not clear him. Again I found myself talking with a teacher on the Activities Committee who explained that she had, in fact, notified the administration several times.

Weeks passed, and finally we were able to get them to acknowledge the club’s approval, so that we could move on to getting approval of the application. Yet no approval came. While all of this was going on we had to keep phoning Horowitz's office to get new dates put on his schedule when he would be available to speak. This whole situation was taking a ridiculous amount of time, and I decided to have a candid conversation with a teacher on the Activities Committee.

Up to then, I had left room for the possibility that all of these delays were simply the result of bureaucratic incompetence. But my conversation with the Activities Committee representative made it apparent that this was not the case. During our conversation I asked point blank: "Are all of the delays in approving David Horowitz intentional?" The teacher's reply was: "I take the fifth." I then asked if that meant the delays were deliberate and rather than issuing a denial, the teacher just continued looking straight ahead. This teacher (whose identity I am protecting) went on to admit that there was, indeed, a leftist bias at the high school, and furthermore, that the school was "nervous" about the prospect of Horowitz speaking. I began to be concerned that the school would never let this event take place. I was deeply thankful for the forum Larry Elder provided to voice these concerns over ABC radio, which I believe ultimately had the effect of pressuring the school into letting Horowitz speak.

After I went on Elder's show to explain the situation, the school was swamped with angry calls and letters and I was soon informed by that same teacher on the Activities Committee that although members of the faculty did not want David to give his lecture, the school was "nervous about not letting him come," and was "intimidated" by Elder’s program. Next thing I knew, Horowitz was cleared to speak.

This was not the end of the ordeal in our attempt to have one alternative voice to balance the constant barrage of leftwing propaganda at Santa Monica High. Apparently the school figured that because they had technically approved the event, they could continue to delay it with impunity. Every time we submitted a new date for assembly, they would take so long to get back to us that the date would get taken by somebody else. I went back to the Larry Elder Show to air this to the Los Angeles public. I also talked to the local papers who gave us support. Finally Horowitz was scheduled to speak on November 1st, nine months after our first invitation the previous spring.

But before Horowitz was able to speak, the left, in an attempt to pre-empt the "bad" influence of conservatives, invited Blase Bonpane, a defrocked priest who had organized solidarity committees for the Communist guerrillas in El Salvador during the Cold War. The application for Bonpane's event was submitted and approved in two days, allowing him to speak before Horowitz. Bonpane told the student assembly that "no war was just," that Ariel Sharon was a "terrorist," that President Bush was "idiotic," that the United States was "the greatest terrorist state," that we were wrong to go into Afghanistan, that we should not go to war with Iraq, that we had killed 1.7 million Iraqis and on and on.

Horowitz spoke as scheduled on November 1. When we brought him onto campus he was met by the Dean of Students who said to him, "Welcome to Santa Monica High; we're glad to have you." To which Horowitz replied "No, you're not. You fought nine months to prevent me from speaking," and walked away.

Horowitz spoke to over two hundred students. Hundreds more showed up but were turned away because we could not even come close to fitting them all in the theater. Horowitz began by introducing himself, and by deploring the efforts that had been made to keep him from speaking. He said "If there's one thought I want to leave you with today, it's this: 'You can't get a good education, if they're only telling you half the story.'" A second and equally important point he made was "Look at what people do, not what they say." He gave the example of people who call America racist and oppressive. He said, "Look at you. You are America. And everyone of you is here because your parents or your grandparents knew that this is the best country, the freest and the one with the most opportunities for you whether you are brown or black or white or anything else. There is no exodus of people fleeing America because it is oppressive or racist. That tells you that people who argue that it is are selling you a bill of goods."

Horowitz then gave the example of liberals who claim that they have the interests of poor people and minorities at heart and that conservatives don't. "Every inner city in America of any significant size," he said, "every failing public school system that doesn't teach poor children, mainly black and Hispanic, to read and write, and thus deprives them of a shot at the American dream -- every one of them -- is controlled by liberals and progressives and has been for fifty years. Everything that is wrong with America's inner cities that policy can affect liberals and progressives are responsible for."

Since they could not deal with these comments, many of the leftist students in the audience were rude, sometimes interrupting Horowitz's speech and applauding loudly for anyone who challenged him. During the question period one student even said in a fit of rage, "Why did they even let you come?" Obviously, the administration at Santa Monica High had taught her by their example. At one point, a black student berated David, accusing him of saying that only blacks and Hispanics where failing in school. David pointed out that he had only said that the problem was particularly severe for those groups. Two-thirds of Los Angeles public school students are Hispanic and half of Los Angeles public school students are failing. But the student had not come to learn. She and her friends got up and attempted to leave. To her credit, our new principal made them sit back down.

After the assembly was over, many students came up to Horowitz to apologize. More than half of them said that they were liberals themselves but they were ashamed at the rude behavior of the student leftists who had interrupted his talk.

The entire event was videotaped by students who were making a film for their video class. At present it seems that we will be denied a copy of the tape. Our requests have been rejected by the teacher of the audio/video class. This, despite the fact that we offered to pay for them. So the censorship continues.

That evening, on the Larry Elder show, I talked about Horowitz’s less than courteous reception at the school. Around that time, the Superintendent of the Santa Monica School district left a message on my answering machine. He said that he wanted to speak with my parents because he was concerned with my appearances on the radio. "I didn’t want it to have to come to this," he said, but he felt he had to take some kind of action against me. When my parents spoke to him, he said that he wanted to publicly challenge the picture I had painted of the school. In his opinion I had "misrepresented" and "mischaracterized" the situation with David Horowitz, including students’ disrespectful conduct. My parents then asked him if he could be specific about comments I had made which he felt were inaccurate, but he could not. He confessed that he had never actually heard me on the radio. When my parents began talking with him about specific issues of leftist bias, it became evident that he was unaware of much of what was going on.

There is a good chance he is going to read this article and I want to let him know that I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is fairly new to the district and I see no reason why he cannot work to reduce the political

bias at Santa Monica High School and restore a proper learning atmosphere. I discussed issues of leftist bias with him last year, but there might have been extenuating circumstances that prevented him from getting involved. Now that he has demonstrated a personal interest, it is my sincere hope that there can be some positive change. Only, rather than taking issue with me for being openly critical, I would implore him to take steps to correct the situation which I am rightfully complaining about.

I would ask him to see to it that the Pledge of Allegiance is recited five days a week in accordance with district and state policy but which is disregarded by the Santa Monica High School administration. I would like him to see to it that both left-wing and right-wing speaker can visit our campus without hindrance; I would like him to announce a policy that would dissuade teachers from using their classrooms as platforms for their partisan political views, from demeaning and attacking our President; from creating a hostile learning environment for students who don't share their political opinion. I would like him to encourage civics classes to have a balance of conservative and leftist texts; to see that his schools stress inclusive patriotism, rather than a multiculturalism that often seems directed at denigrating this country and its history; I would like him to see that texts reflecting the President's post-9/11 statement that America is a beacon of freedom and opportunity to the world be included in our reading lists and not just texts that depict our country as wicked and cruel. I would like to see him make the mission of Santa Monica High education -- and not indoctrination.

Stephen Miller is a Senior at Santa Monica High School. He is a strong critic of the left-wing slant in education and uses the mediums of radio and print to discuss issues of political bias. He can be contacted at

DanSRose Posted: Tue Apr 6 17:41:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The "the left-wing slant in education" exists in the administration only, much of which entered into the education practice to escape the draft/dying in Vietnam.
"The left-wing slant in education" exists in history? Like the heroism at the Alamo, where the 'brave and valiant' fighter ran around and shot panicked until they lost, badly.
There are many many other examples of the like.

ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 6 18:26:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>The "the left-wing slant in education" exists in the administration only, much of which entered into the education practice to escape the draft/dying in Vietnam.
And you doubt that left wing slant in administration has had no effect in the classroom ?

>"The left-wing slant in education" exists in history? Like the heroism at the Alamo, where the 'brave and valiant' fighter ran around and shot panicked until they lost, badly.
>There are many many other examples of the like.
I don't know what you are trying to say here, but the current hollywood treatment of The Alamo is pretty liberal with their view over what actually happened.
One example of this is that they show Davy Crockett surrender and then being executed on his knees, when it is known that he died fighting.
And they did not lose "badly" either.
230 men successfully defended the Alamo until they were overrun by sheer numbers. The mexicans suffered over 1500 casualties.

Malik Posted: Tue Apr 6 20:32:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Here in America, we are graduating high schoolers that can't find Guatemala on a world map.

We are graduating people who can't find TEXAS on our maps. Seriously, I've seen it in real life.

iggy Posted: Tue Apr 6 20:59:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  well... there was this boyband that was coming to town to promote their album and had an autograph session.

singaporean fans queued up 11 days just to get one stupid autograph.

stupid boybands and their fans

DanSRose Posted: Wed Apr 7 01:02:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >And you doubt that left wing slant in administration has had no effect in the classroom ?

I didn't say that. I actually conceded the point.

>I don't know what you are trying to say here, but the current hollywood treatment of The Alamo is pretty liberal with their view over what actually happened.
>One example of this is that they show Davy Crockett surrender and then being executed on his knees, when it is known that he died fighting.
>And they did not lose "badly" either.
>230 men successfully defended the Alamo until they were overrun by sheer numbers. The mexicans suffered over 1500 casualties.

Yes to the second point.
No to #1- New evidence (presented by French soldier, who left the Alamo a few hours before the major battle, but returned immediately afterward and captured by the Mexican Army, which also kept records of it) shows that he surrendered and was later executed by the Mexican Army.

choke Posted: Wed Apr 7 03:09:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mahahahahahaha yay :D this thread couldnt of come at a better time :D i was worried i might be expected to do wellish at school in america - or even some work! :O :D


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