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Headscarf ban: violation of human rights or just separation of state and religion?
breeze Posted: Thu Sep 2 12:16:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Putting the kidnapping of French journalists aside, do you think the French should keep or lift the ban to wear religious symbols in public schools? Do you think that this law is actually a violation of freedom of religious expression or is it a good practice to separate state and religion?


 
Zacq Posted: Thu Sep 2 14:56:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think this is against human rights. The government's role in church and state should be not making laws demanding some sort of religion, like not forcing kids to say the pledge of allegiance in America - but it shouldn't make any laws directly preventing anyone from some religious thing and this came out worded sort of weird but hopefully you get my point.


 
Mark Posted: Thu Sep 2 15:50:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  In my opinion they should lift it since it is against freedom, *but* (and this is a mighty big but) then all other kinds of headwear should be accepted. For example, if I want to wear a baseball head that should be accepted. Why? Well... let's say that head represents my believe in my favorite baseball team. My believes go so far that for me there is no other baseball team. Which makes it a bit like a religion.

See, if that isn't allowed than why should any other form of representing a believe shouldn't be allowed either.

(And before anyone asks, I do not support any baseball team...)


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Sep 2 15:56:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I agree with Wolffie in a way... I say it's all or none...

If headscarves are allowed, then all other sorts of head-wear should be allowed. I mean, what if they were wearing a baseball hat with a Christian cross on it? Would that person's rights be protected as much as the rights of the muslims (am i right?) to wear headscarves because the symbol of his/her religion is imprinted upon it?

I say either everyone is allowed to express their views/opinions in public, or none are.

Schools here in Mexico are really strict about that. If you don't agree with the views, then you don't send your kid to public school and instead pay for a private school where that will be allowed.

You want (free) public education, you simply follow the dress code. As simple as that.


 
breeze Posted: Thu Sep 2 16:20:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  But you see, they don't wear the headscarf because it represents their religion. They wear it because in Koran, which is a guideline for all Muslims, it says that a woman has to be modest and cover her hair. According to the religion, her hair can be seen only by members of her family, her husband, other women and children. It is something they believe they HAVE to do in order to practice the religion right. Many of them wore the headscarfs since the young age and they actually feel "like naked" when they take it off in front of people who are not supposed to see it. It is not just a symbol of a belief like in a baseball cap example, it is something much more to them, something they believe they need to have, like any other part of the clothing.


 
libra Posted: Thu Sep 2 17:03:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  breeze said:
>It is not just a symbol of a belief like in a baseball cap example, it is something much more to them, something they believe they need to have, like any other part of the clothing.

but you said it yourself, they believe they need to have it. It's not an actual physical "wear or else you die" kind of thing. They'll live without it.

I'm not sure where i'd place my vote in this case. One thing that came to mind was the following example: If a child came to school wearing a white pointy hood on their head, and then said it is a statement of what they believe, should they be allowed to keep it on?

Are the kids wearing the baseball cap, the white hood, and the headscarf all equally allowed to wear their head covering of choice, or do we make a distinction?

BUT. another thing i was thinking about as well is that maybe the headscarf wearing thing is sort of 'outdated', maybe in order to fit into the modern society they live in, girls should show their hair, and live like other girls in that society do. I dunno, i have this sort of bias against religions (of all kinds) because i think they're one of the main things thats holding us away from some sort of level of peace the world might be able to reach...

(*In no way am i comparing the islamic religion with the KKK, just using it as an example of headwear that might be offensive/controversial...)


 
Puck Posted: Thu Sep 2 21:34:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>If a child came to school wearing a white pointy hood on their head...

*chuckle* Good point

>i have this sort of bias against religions (of all kinds) because i think they're one of the main things thats holding us away from some sort of level of peace the world might be able to reach...

Libra, get out of my head! lol


 
libra Posted: Thu Sep 2 21:48:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:

>
>Libra, get out of my head! lol

we seem to be quite similar in a few ways...


 
Puck Posted: Thu Sep 2 22:13:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>we seem to be quite similar in a few ways...

*hums the Twilight Zone tune...then for no apparent reason, switches to the X Files*

The elipsis confuses me...like the word "yet". lol


 
breeze Posted: Fri Sep 3 07:16:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>BUT. another thing i was thinking about as well is that maybe the headscarf wearing thing is sort of 'outdated', maybe in order to fit into the modern society they live in, girls should show their hair, and live like other girls in that society do.
>

I don't see how wearing a headscarf makes them 'outdated', I mean I saw many girls wearing it, but who made it in a modern way, like a part of fashion of their own.. Headscarf doesn't offense anybody, it is not directed towards anybody, all it represents that the person practices his/her religion in a certain way (the same way people wear crosses, Jewish hats, etc.) I think the differences should be celebrated and not suppressed, people should be accepted in the society regardless of their beliefs (as soon as their belief doesn't harm people around them).


 
Mark Posted: Fri Sep 3 08:40:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  breeze said:
>I think the differences should be celebrated and not suppressed, people should be accepted in the society regardless of their beliefs (as soon as their belief doesn't harm people around them).
True, but it sounds a bit idealistic, doesn't it. I mean, everybody is different. Somebody form groups (through, for example, religion, but it might be any other kind of group forming) and that group stands as a whole. However, in general, a group will always oppose other groups since other groups threaten their survival. But this might be a bit off topic.


 
breeze Posted: Fri Sep 3 09:12:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  True. I guess it yes it was a bit idealistic. I mean with all the diversity around us we rarely celebrate it and discriminations still exist whether it is based on race, religion, or any other thing. It is impossible to make everybody accept everybody, so I think basically it is impossible to get rid of biases people have towards certain things.


 
webmaster Posted: Fri Sep 3 11:31:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  There was just this very case in Singapore about 2 years back where some Muslim parents insisted that their daughters in primary school wear headscarves, citing religious reasons. The government told them that outside school, they could wear whatever they wanted, but while in school, remove the headscarves, or go to religious school instead.

I understand the need for practising religious freedom, but in this case, I agreed with the government, which felt that it was important to establish and maintain a common identify, especially among the young.

When we were pushing for our country's independence in the 1960s, it was under this common identity that the different races came together, fought and won. And it is this common identity that we still live and strive under.

Everyone has his or her own rights, religious or otherwise, but when you are living in a community, it's never just about *you*.


 
FN Posted: Thu Sep 9 11:41:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A bit late but here it is.


Plain and simple, headscarfs and other religious symbols should be banned from all formal situations.


 
Christian Posted: Thu Sep 9 12:04:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  who are we to dictate what ppl should or shouldn't wear. The banning in itself is a religious decree. :-)


 
sidzee Posted: Tue Mar 29 18:53:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  well if its solely about seperating state from the nation then there are a lot of symbols for different religions that can be banned... the crosses, the head scarf, a beard, judaism also comes with its do and don'ts.... if its seperating religion from state then all should go fullstop and technically no one should argue it...

on the same note there is just so much order, rule and discipline you can enforce in a community without taking away its diversity. No headscarves, no crosses, no base ball caps.... no personal preferences???

the last time i checked my name was not dolly neither was yours :)



 



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